How to cross VOIDS in Oolite!

[Redspear]

My premise: Thargoids can't be everywhere.

Even 3 "standard" misjumps in a row using different systems each time can end up a lot of places in the void

It's a premise, so fair enough, but...
Maybe they don't have to be everywhere.

The elite lore IIRC was that they could 'hang' in witchspace and occasionally pull travellers towards them. In practice, misjumps were player generated events (as they usually are in oolite) but then drawing attention to oneself can reliably encourage interaction from others.

maybe Thargoids can magically pull themselves to you as long you stay on that line.

Classically it was they they'd pull you. The fact that one's misjump can be plotted rather suggests that it might be the other way around but if Thargoids were 'nodal' in their lurking then they still needn't be everywhere.

The plotting was tokenistic in elite but in oolite it is considered accurate (has utility) and thus the difference.

Thargoids could follow you, either by using your wormhole or making a jump of their own for the exact same distance along the exact same route...but that would mean abandoning their ambush spots on the main lines between the 4 systems.

Maybe they don't travel quite as we do. I think that was implied by the original lore, that they had some sort of mastery of witchspace that humans didn't.

Maybe they can 'node-hop' or witch-space travel for them is near instantaneous. You don't need to be everywhere when you can get anywhere really fast.

That could be really interesting if implemented further. Follow a thargoid through a wormhole and by the time you get out of the other side it's gone. Have a thargoid follow you through a wormhole and it's already waiting for you when you get there

Misjumping doesn't have to be symmetrical like regular jumps.
This tends to happen when the total distance isn't evenly divisible by 0.4 Light-Years.
So 2 systems 1.2 LY apart would likely have a misjump that's 0.4 LY from one direction and 0.8 LY from the other...or 0.4 LY from both directions!

Right, so there's already a possible excuse for Thargoids occasionally pulling the player towards them.

The locations that can be reached as well as time taken to do it gets even more complex when using non-standard misjumps that can be any percentage of the total distance.

Of course, an oxp should do whatever it's designed to do but when there's enough variability inherently involved in the process then the player interpretation of what's going on has much more room for manoeuvre.

Maybe without the Thargoids there are no misjumps i.e. the player is exploiting the Thargoid compulsion to interfere with 'noisy' witchspace users (those that draw attention to themselves) for their own purpose.

I quite like the idea that witchspace is consistently dangerous. Rather like the idea that leaving the spacelane should be dangerous (a la deep space pirates), I think misjumping should be something to go fear, or at least be very well prepared for.

Of course, thinning Thargoids or removing them alltogether are different strategies, as is not thinning them in the first place.

[Cody]

Maybe they don't travel quite as we do. I think that was implied by the original lore, that they had some sort of mastery of witchspace that humans didn't.

This!

[Switeck]

I quite like the idea that witchspace is consistently dangerous. Rather like the idea that leaving the spacelane should be dangerous (a la deep space pirates), I think misjumping should be something to go fear, or at least be very well prepared for.

I need to separate similar ideas here.

Misjumping is dangerous if you end up unexpectedly stuck in interstellar space without a (safe?) means to leave.

The lore of ambushes and fighting inside the witchspace tunnel itself is unfortunately not doable at least as far as current Oolilte versions go.

With some earlier versions of Oolite, I figured out how to stack wormholes on top/inside one another and go through them in a single witchspace tunnel animation...and I was ambushed by Thargoids on occasion in the middle of/during that tunnel.
This also included arriving at the same system multiple times, reducing whatever my bounty was to 0.
The ram usage spiked into multi-GB range doing that...and made Oolite have all sorts of odd crashes.

cim removed that behavior...and added script-able percentage-based misjumps to console me over my broken Null Gates OXP that exploited stacked wormhole behavior.

Thargoids still have to have some means of pulling ships out of witchspace to ambush them between systems. That's mastery enough right there, but they have to be "somewhere" to do that from and I'm going on the strong assumption that they're near the path line for the jump. (within 0.4 L.Y. of the path.)

While a string-of-misjumps may be almost entirely safe from "regular" Thargoid ambushes...the first misjump from a system doesn't have to be.
Even if Thargoids wait-in-ambush at roughly the middle of the jump-route, the only way to avoid that "middle" is if a misjump dumps you out before that.
The canon lore already includes the idea that a short 1/10th LY jump to "nowhere in particular" that was seldom-traveled was reasonably safe from Thargoids.
I'm running with that.

Thargoids are never seen making wormholes themselves. They basically never arrive at the standard destination exit for a system (near the witchspace beacon) unless following other ship/s through their wormhole.
But they are OFTEN in a star system mucking around some distance from the witchspace beacon.

I have an explanation for that...

Thargoids have not only figured out how to break into witchspace tunnels...they have figured out how to come out the entrance as well!

[Redspear]

I need to separate similar ideas here.

Misjumping is dangerous if you end up unexpectedly stuck in interstellar space without a (safe?) means to leave.

That part is predictable though isn't it? I mean with regards to fuel expenditure?

The lore of ambushes and fighting inside the witchspace tunnel itself is unfortunately not doable at least as far as current Oolilte versions go.

I'm not sure that it need be the tunnel itself...

Thargoid battle-cruisers believed to be able to "hover" in Witch-Space (hyperspace) and destroy through-coming craft).

It could be of course but then considering how it worked in elite it was never represented that way.

The canon lore already includes the idea that a short 1/10th LY jump to "nowhere in particular" that was seldom-traveled was reasonably safe from Thargoids.

Is it this?

'There's something I ought to tell you about uncontrolled WitchSpace jumps . . .' Elyssia said, and
Alex felt a moment's irritation.

'I already know. Thanks. Besides, wherever we're going we're only going a tenth of an LY. And that's reasonably safe.'

Thargoids are never seen making wormholes themselves. They basically never arrive at the standard destination exit for a system (near the witchspace beacon) unless following other ship/s through their wormhole.
But they are OFTEN in a star system mucking around some distance from the witchspace beacon.

I have an explanation for that...

Thargoids have not only figured out how to break into witchspace tunnels...they have figured out how to come out the entrance as well!

Personally, I can't see why they'd need to use the beacons if they had developed hyperspace technology independantly - unless one has it that it was the Thargoids who built the beacons?

The most likely entrance to a tunnel would be near a station I think. I'd rather imagine that they simply go where they please.

[Switeck]

Misjumping is dangerous if you end up unexpectedly stuck in interstellar space without a (safe?) means to leave.

That part is predictable though isn't it? I mean with regards to fuel expenditure?

There's a chance of a random fuel leak that totally drains your fuel tank if your ship hasn't been repaired recently.
Misjumps are harder on the ship than regular jumps, making that more likely...
Extreme damage in combat (no-shields hull hits) can trigger a fuel leak too, although that's even more rare.

Is it this?

Yes, that was it.

Thargoids have not only figured out how to break into witchspace tunnels...they have figured out how to come out the entrance as well!

The most likely entrance to a tunnel would be near a station I think. I'd rather imagine that they simply go where they please.

Yes, the most likely entrance would be near a station...and the Thargoids have a more accurate sense of where a wormhole starts+ends than we do to avoid appearing near a station.
At least they can probably measure if a wormhole was made nearer to the planet or sun and may have a preference for sun-skimming wormholes.

[hiran]

Switeck - what do you wish to do with this information?

We could do nothing and keep it a secret (which seems to have been the modus operandi to date - lots of coy hints (just as for trumble infestations...)

We could add it to the relevant galaxy pages in the wiki.

We could add it to the Geography page.

We could add it to the Hints.oxp

etc. etc.

What appeals to you?

Hi there.

I believe this insight should be kept somewhere. If not in-game (and thus released to only advanced pilots to get yet some more advantage - a rumor distributed in bars on the station?) it could go into a wiki page.

For more basic players we might want to collect information how to survive a misjump. And how to force a misjump on purpose. Again a wiki page, and for sure rumors to be spread in space bars, but it should definitely be part of flight school.
So the chapter in flight school could be how to jump, the dangers of misjumping and what to do to decrease chances of a misjump. Also some emergency procedures should be taught if possible. Only later some tactical advantage or purpose of misjumps could be communicated - see the above paragraph.

Just my .02 €

@switec What misjump recovery technique are you using? I believe the most important part is fuel, so how to obtain that in interstellar space?

[Nite Owl]

What misjump recovery technique are you using? I believe the most important part is fuel, so how to obtain that in interstellar space?

Apart from carrying the Pylon Mounted Fuel Tanks mentioned in previous posts INTERSTELLAR HELP probably has the most comprehensive and reliable methods for getting out of this situation. If either Navy is present you could try docking with one of their larger ships and buying fuel but that is unreliable. Getting out through someone else's wormhole is a possibility but that is also unreliable. Have experienced all of these methods and only Interstellar Help has proven itself useful time and again.

[Redspear]

Misjumping is dangerous if you end up unexpectedly stuck in interstellar space without a (safe?) means to leave.

That part is predictable though isn't it? I mean with regards to fuel expenditure?

There's a chance of a random fuel leak that totally drains your fuel tank if your ship hasn't been repaired recently.
Misjumps are harder on the ship than regular jumps, making that more likely...
Extreme damage in combat (no-shields hull hits) can trigger a fuel leak too, although that's even more rare.

My point being that those three things you mention are either unlucky (last of the 3 - I've never experienced it) or due to player neglect
given that the player will typically enter hyperspace after leving a station (chance of repair/maintenance).

I'd be fine with the player occasionally getting 'lucky' (no thargoids) after an unintentional misjump because, as was said elsewhere, there are still potential consequences to that.

Deliberately inducing a misjump however is a different matter to my mind and I'd argue that the player should be prepared for (and expect) more than the necessary calculation re fuel expenditure.

[Switeck]

Dealing with unwanted or wanted misjumps has been mentioned at this forum numerous times.

I'm usually running with so much equipment on my ship that can create wormholes-on-demand in testing that there is no way I can get stranded in interstellar space...only inconvenienced because it is a long way back to the start.
My SwiteckAutojumper v0.56.oxp (if used a certain way) even blows up my ship to force a quick restart from the location of the last savegame just so I can continue testing misjump routes quicker.

A borderline-legit wormhole-making equipment I made is the Wormhole Bomb, a fragile Q-bomb like pod that creates a single wormhole up to the normal max range of 7 LY. Much like the Q-bomb it's not cheap...

When I play "seriously", which is rare anymore, I don't have any of the wormhole-making equipment that I consider cheating -- which is almost all of it.
Instead I carry at least one 3 LY fuel pod in place of 1 missile slot and a Galactic Hyperdrive.
I scan wormholes just outside the main station when I launch to see if they're going to the same system as I want to...especially if such systems are 4+ LY away.

I also usually have Frame's Fuel Collector OXZ installed which lets me slowly gather fuel if I'm willing-and-able to burn an hour or more doing it.
Cim's comms-pack-a OXZ has NPC ships sometimes say where they're going to hyperspace to before making a wormhole...they basically never lie about that, so it's useful to have too.

My point being that those three things you mention are either unlucky (last of the 3 - I've never experienced it) or due to player neglect

It doesn't matter if something is rare...if it happens to you!
...Especially for "Iron Man rules" players.

Unintentional misjumps always encountering Thargoids isn't something I'm removing with my Thargoid remover...those are almost always the standard "midway" misjumps anyway.
Deliberate misjumps to somewhere other than "midway" always encountering Thargoids is the issue I have.

A special location in interstellar space (set up by an OXP/OXZ no doubt!) might for plot purposes either have no Thargoids or have MORE Thargoids...or vary depending on what part of the campaign you're working on.
...But it's really hard to program that when the core game always wants to add Thargoids and a few OXZs add even more Thargoids way-too-often.

[Redspear]

My point being that those three things you mention are either unlucky (last of the 3 - I've never experienced it) or due to player neglect

It doesn't matter if something is rare...if it happens to you!
...Especially for "Iron Man rules" players.

You're imagining it being always fatal then? Else it could occur more than once. Therefore how rare it was would matter because that would determine how often it was likely happen to you, right?

Unintentional misjumps always encountering Thargoids isn't something I'm removing with my Thargoid remover...those are almost always the standard "midway" misjumps anyway.
Deliberate misjumps to somewhere other than "midway" always encountering Thargoids is the issue I have.

So you wish deliberately misjumping to be less dangerous that unintentionally misjumping?
You want the one that can easily be avoided to be safe and the one that can't (because you don't think it matters how rare it is) to be dangerous?

Opposite of how I think it should work but hey, oxps

A special location in interstellar space (set up by an OXP/OXZ no doubt!) might for plot purposes either have no Thargoids or have MORE Thargoids...or vary depending on what part of the campaign you're working on.
...But it's really hard to program that when the core game always wants to add Thargoids and a few OXZs add even more Thargoids way-too-often.

Well oxps can do what they want of course, so (as demonstrated here perhaps) having everyone see it one person's way might not be likely.

As for the core game, can't you just add a condition script with shipdata-overrides and then you could control when a ship was spawned (potentially overriding other oxps as well as the core populator)?

[Switeck]

If you're stuck in interstellar space and you don't have fuel to jump and have no Galactic Hyperdrive...it is effective fatal barring an unlikely arrival of another ship that can jump out.
That's why Interstellar Help OXP exists.

So you wish deliberately misjumping to be less dangerous that unintentionally misjumping?

Only some deliberate misjumps will be less dangerous than unintentionally misjump.

You want the one that can easily be avoided to be safe and the one that can't (because you don't think it matters how rare it is) to be dangerous?

I'm not eliminating Murphy's Law...nothing is completely "safe" in Oolite.
...But safer than the unintentional one or at least no more dangerous.

As for the core game, can't you just add a condition script with shipdata-overrides and then you could control when a ship was spawned (potentially overriding other oxps as well as the core populator)?

Yes, that will work if you do that for all Thargoids found in core game and added by OXPs/OXZs.

The core game has a system populator and a system repopulator for regular systems and interstellar space.
At interstellar space, the game adds ships with role "thargoid" unless you either remove all ships with that role or remove those scripts.
Even if you (as a player) kill all the Thargoids, the game will keep adding more.
The game temporarily quits adding Thargoids if the current number is >2...but that doesn't count the Thargon drones each Thargoid launches.
So you can't really win there...you can only fight till you have to flee or die!

[Cody]

...but that doesn't count the Thargon drones each Thargoid launches.

An old pic, as per the watermark. I splashed a whole load of warships in IS, but they kept on coming - leaving oodles of inert drones!

[Redspear]

I think we might have left the point of diminishing returns some way behind on one of our collective misjumps here, so this will be the last one for some time from me...

If you're stuck in interstellar space and you don't have fuel to jump and have no Galactic Hyperdrive...it is effective fatal barring an unlikely arrival of another ship that can jump out.
That's why Interstellar Help OXP exists.

But proper fuel management/maintenace removes this risk from deliberate misjumps. In other words the "effective fatal" you're talking about is the one you wish to populate with Thargoids, leaving the non-fatal (deliberate) without?

Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:43 pm
So you wish deliberately misjumping to be less dangerous that unintentionally misjumping?

Only some deliberate misjumps will be less dangerous than unintentionally misjump.
...
...But safer than the unintentional one or at least no more dangerous.

So yes (at least speaking in general terms) you do wish deliberately misjumping to be less dangerous than unintentionally misjumping.
No crime in that, just a choice.

You want the one that can easily be avoided to be safe and the one that can't (because you don't think it matters how rare it is) to be dangerous?

I'm not eliminating Murphy's Law...nothing is completely "safe" in Oolite.

In a game where the player can die trying to dock, that much was assumed.

The game temporarily quits adding Thargoids if the current number is >2...but that doesn't count the Thargon drones each Thargoid launches.
So you can't really win there...you can only fight till you have to flee or die!

Or... create a harmless/invisible/player avoiding (non thargoid AI) ship with the role 'thargoid' and a role weight of 1000+.

[hiran]

What misjump recovery technique are you using? I believe the most important part is fuel, so how to obtain that in interstellar space?

Apart from carrying the Pylon Mounted Fuel Tanks mentioned in previous posts INTERSTELLAR HELP probably has the most comprehensive and reliable methods for getting out of this situation. If either Navy is present you could try docking with one of their larger ships and buying fuel but that is unreliable. Getting out through someone else's wormhole is a possibility but that is also unreliable. Have experienced all of these methods and only Interstellar Help has proven itself useful time and again.

Interesting. I used the fuel generator, which has helped me in so many more situations than just misjumps. It just makes me independent of fueling at stations or skimming stars. Especially useful when corkscrewing to avoid pirates and while at that being able to spend shield and refuel the tanks...

[cbr]

Currently using jump planner oxp for photo ops.



Planning to use this O.V.A.R, , an Okti Voidjumper Ring instead of dumping cobra derelicts around the galaxy...