Split: Re-scaling experiment

[Cholmondely]

Redspear adding Jane's Galactic Shipset (the first installment of his Rescaling Experiment

I've read this before and it isn't quite true.

Firstly, the rescaling experiment has already been successfully completed over several iterations.

The chief 'problem' was not of replicating core game experience (as some feared) but rather of retaining broad oxp compatability (when those oxps were intended for a non-rescaled game). Thus earlier versions of the rescaled code did have starter oxp packages made available for them so that the player could experince the 'new' game.

The latest version of the experiment being worked upon (delayed since the summer but essentially complete) was designed to both address that issue as well as to improve upon cosmetics and general implementation.

Rescaling the ships (relative to each other) was always an optional addition but does change the gameplay. So, I eventually came up with a method to do this that had an apparent logic and also didn't require core code changes. The result was JGS and means that BOTH the new version of the rescaling experiment will not require ship changes AND that ship rescaling will be possible without the core changes of the rescaling experiment itself.

If I could have explained myself better, I wonder if that rescaling thread might not have had such a tempestuos start...

So if somebody with a Windows computer wants to give the most recent version of this a shot, what do they do?

What do they download?

And is there anything else that they need to do or know?

[Redspear]

So if somebody with a Windows computer wants to give the most recent version of this a shot, what do they do?

Ask me nicely to hurry up and finish testing so that I can confirm my code changes.

What do they download?

I'm so out of practice with github that it would likely (initially at least) be a matter of building from source themselves.

And is there anything else that they need to do or know?

Probably but then the summer was a disruptive one for me and I should (and likely will) be asking that same question of myself as I try to get my head around my own methodolgy at that time.

As I've said before, it is my current testbed for oxp development and I can't recall any problems emerging during that time. I've got that nagging feeling that there's likely something I've forgotten however...

[Redspear]

An illustration....

Arrival at Leesti

Standard game:




Step 1

• make the space lane 6 times longer

Step 2

• make the planet 3 times larger

Step 3

• make the sun distance 81 times further

Step 4

• make the sun 27 times larger

That represents a much larger arena despite a broadly similar if more cinematic appearance.

The illusion of semi-approriate scale will therefore hold up much better than the standard game at close range to either a planet or star and when encountering a station or other large entity along the spacelane.

Appropriate adjustment of both lane widths and torus speeds can ameliorate masslock frequency and travel times respectively.

No ship speed changes necessary and therefore likely full oxp ship and station compatibility.


Old and New:

[Redspear]

Proof that even greater sun distances are possible (sun still at x27, another x100 added the the sun distance modifier).




Exploiting greater space to add mini asteroid fields.
Incorporating small, large and huge asteroids and using the alt model to provide alternate sizes and shapes within each category.




Rock hermit at x1.5




Note the rock hermit on the left just making it onto the scanner below. Compare its tiny lollipop 'shadow' (barely visible) with that of the huge asteroid on the right, which is actually a very similar distance from the player.

[Cholmondely]

I've added two of these images to the wiki page - an excellent illustration of what's going on!

What happens with the Masslocking when you add in no masslocking mods? Does it become utterly ghastly? And what about pirate attacks? Does it change the tactics?

It might also have some interesting psychological effects when playing with Gates OXP, Fuel Stations and the various OXP stations clustered around the Witchpoint beacon.

Is the massive increase in RH size to allow it to be seen from the station? Does it work?

Might we not be better off with asteroid rings rather than fields?

[Redspear]

I've added two of these images to the wiki page - an excellent illustration of what's going on!

Thanks, I should have posted similar ages ago, even if I likely will tweak the values (already have ).

What happens with the Masslocking when you add in no masslocking mods? Does it become utterly ghastly? And what about pirate attacks? Does it change the tactics?

Not a lot - I've adjusted the spacelane so that encounter numbers should remain near constant with the standard game.
As for pirate/player tactics, the scanner arena is unchanged and the space lane has been adapted, so there should be no discernable difference.

Is the massive increase in RH size to allow it to be seen from the station? Does it work?

No, and nor should it.
Suppose I wanted them to be generally twice as visible from the station (which I don't)...
x6 for lane increase
x2 for double visibilty
= 12 times bigger

I've only made them one and a half times bigger. I have made some asteroids 9 times bigger but you shouldn't be noticing many (if any) of them from the station; besides which, they're rarer anyway.

The asteroid changes are optional and just an example of how extra space can be exploited without highlighting how small and cramped everything is.

Might we not be better off with asteroid rings rather than fields?

With planets three times as big? Entity count massively up, frame rate distinctly down I suspect (would look cool though ).

[Cholmondely]

Is the massive increase in RH size to allow it to be seen from the station? Does it work?

No, and nor should it.
Suppose I wanted them to be generally twice as visible from the station (which I don't)...
x6 for lane increase
x2 for double visibilty
= 12 times bigger

I've only made them one and a half times bigger. I have made some asteroids 9 times bigger but you shouldn't be noticing many (if any) of them from the station; besides which, they're rarer anyway.

The asteroid changes are optional and just an example of how extra space can be exploited without highlighting how small and cramped everything is.

I tried the Adder start with Stranger's World. I needed to tweak it so that I had a full tank of fuel (otherwise the ship explodes after flying for a few seconds without fuel!) - and then was desperately hunting for asteroids to blast to earn a little dosh. Pretty hairy experience (doing this while trying to avoid pirates!)

Might we not be better off with asteroid rings rather than fields?

With planets three times as big? Entity count massively up, frame rate distinctly down I suspect (would look cool though ).

But the other games do it, no? E:D, Star Citizen, etc. On an old computer it won't work, but on a newer one?

[another_commander]

But the other games do it, no? E:D, Star Citizen, etc. On an old computer it won't work, but on a newer one?

Quite flattered to have Oolite compared to E:D (not so much about the Star Citizen comparison, but I won't go there any further), but these games use special techniques like instancing to achieve those vast, densely populated asteroid fields. Info on instancing here for those interested.

Can this be done also in Oolite? Sure, as long as there is someone who can code it up. And then, considerations like collision detections etc. will have to be taken into account next, so that the asteroid fields don't end up just being there for decoration only.

Sorry for the off-topic, back to our nomral schedule now.

[Redspear]

I tried the Adder start with Stranger's World. I needed to tweak it so that I had a full tank of fuel (otherwise the ship explodes after flying for a few seconds without fuel!) - and then was desperately hunting for asteroids to blast to earn a little dosh. Pretty hairy experience (doing this while trying to avoid pirates!)

Perhaps if I elaborate upon my seemingly stern reply to your original question. If I make them (consistently) visible from the station then that would be contrary to the goal of rescaling. I want room to hide things, even asteroids that are 9 times bigger than the norm. Make more things visible from the station and suddenly the system seems cramped rather than spacious.

As for asteroid hunting, you get more for destroying some of the larger ones but the huge asteroids likely aren't blowing up very easily.

But the other games do it, no? E:D, Star Citizen, etc. On an old computer it won't work, but on a newer one?

Well, quite but consider that their planets compared to core oolite are about x100. Then consider that their rings tend to orbit gas giants, so let's (being kind) say another x5, so we might need planets 500 bigger to achieve similar.

x500... I'm working with x3

[Redspear]

Issue with suns...

I don't know if it's to do with recent versions of oolite but last year I could create massive suns and scale up corona effects accordingly.
Having recently updated the base code, sun glare is markedly reduced (not a problem) but coronal effects beyond a haze seem absent.

Am I just skimming the wrong stars or have some other code changes occured with regards suns in the past year?

[another_commander]

There have been a few experimental changes with the sun recently. Some of the previous nightlies had indeed issues but since a few days ago the sun drawing parameters were restored to their 1.90 values. If you are using a nightly build older than a week or so, try updating.

I really liked the way the sun looked in 1.90 but its visuals rely on a) absence of gamma correction and b) using a color rgb range from 0 to 1. This kills the sun appearance as soon as you apply the new render to texture technique (sun appears too dim compared to everything else, which is not acceptable), which is why an update was necessary. Hopefully the latest build helps improve the effect. I can see corona effects now, although they are somewhat tamer than before.

If this is not good enough, then a better bloom algorithm or a complete redesign of the sun rendering might help but both of those options are difficult to pull off.

[another_commander]

Redspear, please check the latest nightly from here. This undoes one of my earlier modifications, which was basically deliberately fading out the corona effects when approaching the sun. With the latest changes that made sun rendering pretty much the same as v1.90, this fadeout is no longer needed and the effects should be -present even when sun skimming.

[Redspear]

Redspear, please check the latest nightly from here. This undoes one of my earlier modifications, which was basically deliberately fading out the corona effects when approaching the sun. With the latest changes that made sun rendering pretty much the same as v1.90, this fadeout is no longer needed and the effects should be -present even when sun skimming.

Thanks a_c, I will...

Meanwhile, I've been pushing things a bit to see how much room I could have without obviously compromising gameplay.

Arrival at Riedquat (incorporating a little oxp script from here)




The larger the planet, the greater the system strain, so this is as much as I could get with the current limits of my coding (4 times as big with spacelane 14 times as long - yet to test on the very biggest planets). But I still want the planet to be in some way recognisable from the witchpoint, so I'm not sure I'd want it any bigger.




A wretched hive of scum and villainy (unless you have paddling pool oxp installed in which case it's quite nice )




Lot's of potential for other planets in a cinematic rather than realistic representation of a system (sun at x40, sun distance at x160, so it holds up quite well while exploring the system).

[Redspear]

I've been pushing things a bit

So much so that I couldn't replicate that distance again at Riedquat

Tried x12 space lane and it's debatable which is better:




So that's how big the sun looks from the witchpoint, but for a real sense of scale it should look almost exactly the same from the planet/station




Not bad... Meanwhile, approaching the sun before the glare gets to strong to check the rear view




Riedquat can be seen somewhere above the a in "Weapons offline", about halfway to the crosshair marker



The point isn't that it can't be seen but rather that it doesn't distract.


Textures holding up too (Riedquat has a rather plain texture by default)




It's one of the larger planets, so the station should look rather small. Somewhere in the direction of that green nebula...





Only spotted it at that range thanks to an oxp...


Illuminated this time, right between the crosshairs.




I think that strikes a pretty good balance between realism and functional play.

Torus drive is wicked fast and stops pretty sharp by necessity.

[Redspear]

Redspear, please check the latest nightly from here. This undoes one of my earlier modifications, which was basically deliberately fading out the corona effects when approaching the sun. With the latest changes that made sun rendering pretty much the same as v1.90, this fadeout is no longer needed and the effects should be -present even when sun skimming.

I looked at the code changes as listed and they appeared to be the same as in the last git pull I'd done after your recommendation a post or two earlier.
That change however did look better to me but I hope we can one day get back those shimmery effects you'd see at places like Leesti. Thanks.

As might seem obvious there's a dynamic tension between many of these settings (sun size, planet size, lane length etc.) and so I'm exploring which compromises work best and how much leeway they grant. For example, if I load up additional plaets oxp then some of the environments I created below break down - as in 'Universe failed'. I can adjust the build or I can adjust the oxp to make it work but I think that doing the former is the more worthwhile.

Planets at x4 is a winner I think. x3 works well except for the smallest planets and anythinhg above x4 is for diminishing returns it seems. I remember now why I went with it before I had to do other things about this time last year.

Currently playing with quite long WP-Planet lanes and shorter Planet-Sun lanes than previous attemps. Both are still longer than in the standard game but each one comes at a cost so it's a case of finding a pleasing trade-off.

For example, there's something to be said for letting the player experience the apparent sun/planet size ratio change significantly upon approach.




The distance from WP to planet might be a bit to far here but clearly the sun is the big thing in the system. Experiencing the planet grow much larger upon approach while the sun remains near constant reinforces that initial impression.




Sun distance is (proportionaly) at x3 here rather than x4 but I think it looks pretty good.