Perfectly balanced economics?

[szaumix]

Remaining to-do list/wishlist:

1. Greater payout for Parcel/Passenger Contracts relative to assassin risk, then for distance, and finally far less reputation-relevant pay.

2. Much smaller base fees for Escort Contracts, much higher per bounty fee. (This makes sense because it correlates to actual rather than government-assumed risk). Also I have now failed several contracts because my dumbass Escort Mother engaged the bandits and got smoked, which I don't mind but I feel my rep should have taken a harder hit.

3. Move asteroids and non GalCop dockables out of the space lanes. Not too far, just enough that you have to keep an eye open for them. I just don't think I should be regularly bumping right into quick money deals without effort. I like the idea that I have to either pay for the ASC beacons, or I see something in the corner of my view and I go "hey!" and check it out. Even that minor effort feels true to the space-faring, effort-laden Oolite I want.

4. Buy-only Planetfall markets, at average-to-high prices. This -- or something like this -- would solve a couple of Switecks concerns about hauler balance.

5. I love the idea of liners as markets but I encountered a docking bug months ago and got the sh**s and removed it, plus I want them harder than average to find and I want their markets to be "appropriate". I dunno.

Other than that, I am already far happier with it all than when I started this thread.

... and unbeknownst to me my entire current save game has been played in very strict Iron Man mode...

Are you using escape pods?

Yeah but I haven't needed them yet. I've also got some mod with massive consequences for pods, I forget which but it's devastating. Basically everything is broken when you get to the station.

[Cody]

About using escape pods: cargo is lost, but parcels remain - though the elapsed time spent in the pod can play havoc with delivery schedules.

[Switeck]

3. Move asteroids and non GalCop dockables out of the space lanes. Not too far, just enough that you have to keep an eye open for them. I just don't think I should be regularly bumping right into quick money deals without effort. I like the idea that I have to either pay for the ASC beacons, or I see something in the corner of my view and I go "hey!" and check it out. Even that minor effort feels true to the space-faring, effort-laden Oolite I want.

4. Buy-only Planetfall markets, at average-to-high prices. This -- or something like this -- would solve a couple of Switecks concerns about hauler balance.

5. I love the idea of liners as markets but I encountered a docking bug months ago and got the sh**s and removed it, plus I want them harder than average to find and I want their markets to be "appropriate". I dunno.

3. Plain-vanilla Oolite places Rock Hermits sometimes well away from the space-lanes. Fortunately, they're big enough to see from a considerable distance (like half the witchpoint beacon to planet range). There's a few OXP/OXZ stations that do the same...and if you're modding, it's not too much trouble to move the placement of the others. I find Hoopy Casinos a lot harder to reach than they used to be! FTC stations found in multi-governments are easy to find, but a bit of a pain to use.

4. Getting stuck with a failed cargo contract isn't just annoying -- if it's the TC kind, you have a large portion of your cargo capacity used up and you can't even sell it to stations for a significant profit very fast... So haulers are reasonably balanced, often in a couple ways (rare risks on long trips and lots slower). Far as I know, Planetfall had a few bugs/quirks anyway...I never got it to be "safe" on my end. But some ships are stated as "landing capable" like the Adder, Moray, Shuttle, Transporter, etc (for ones I missed).

5. Easy to find can be balanced by small markets (both in amount for sale and how much you can sell to them), minimum profits, or non-standard commodity desires...like wanting only a tiny subset of commodities. If you can only sell 2 TC of furs to a Hoopy Casino, it may not matter if they're willing to pay 5-10 credits more each than the main station.

[szaumix]

I can't believe this just occurred to me. Stacks of goods that are in kgs and not tonnes should all take up at least 1TC per stack. Having massive amounts of grams in your pod makes sense but probably not kgs. This feature is already represented in Smugglers via compartment space, so how hard could it be to implement in the cargo bay -- particularly when that is the default for picking up stacked kgs of things in space!

Still on the hunt for perfect economic balance!

[phkb]

I've also got some mod with massive consequences for pods, I forget which but it's devastating. Basically everything is broken when you get to the station.

sounds like strangers Hard Way

[Redspear]

I've also got some mod with massive consequences for pods, I forget which but it's devastating. Basically everything is broken when you get to the station.

sounds like strangers Hard Way

Might be escape pod as standard.

Idea being that all your equipment is resupplied but not necessarily installed. Easiest way to simulate that was to have it be 'broken'.

[Cholmondely]

I've also got some mod with massive consequences for pods, I forget which but it's devastating. Basically everything is broken when you get to the station.

sounds like strangers Hard Way

Might be escape pod as standard.

Idea being that all your equipment is resupplied but not necessarily installed. Easiest way to simulate that was to have it be 'broken'.

There's also Ship Repurchase

[szaumix]

I've also got some mod with massive consequences for pods, I forget which but it's devastating. Basically everything is broken when you get to the station.

sounds like strangers Hard Way

It turned out to be Hard Eject. Which, since that post, I had to use a couple of times. I considered an 'upgrade' to Escape Pod As Standard (EDIT: whoops, I meant  Ship Repurchase) but there were just two things I didn't like about it: I like the idea that escape pods are not standard, and I like that if you die you die (GAME OVER), meaning I like having to actually decide to double-tap eject. Big decision in anything smaller than a python! Because why not just try to dodge out of trouble?

EDIT: actually I lie... I didn't "have to" eject

Still on the hunt for perfect economic balance!

This begs the question (again): how hard should making money be?

Since this can be seen in scalar terms, the relevant factors would seem to be:
1. how long [in total gaming hours] should it take to save any given credit amount? (New ship, make it an iron ass, etc...)?
2. what do prices and rewards need to be to make that happen?

I guess it's time to spreadsheet every equipment item, commodity and bounty etc and see if I can define the economic model in actuarial terms.

[Stormrider]

I guess it's time to spreadsheet every equipment item, commodity and bounty etc and see if I can define the economic model in actuarial terms.

I think this would be a great tool for oxp authors to use to help tweak the economy, I hope you will share it with us once completed.

A dynamic economy would be the most interesting, I believe, but probably the hardest to balance. I thought it would be cool to create randomized opportunities for lucrative trade routes the player could take advantage of that would eventually dry up, eg a saloon needs 1000 T of witchfire delivered for a premium price, but the player isn't the only one bringing in the cargo.

[szaumix]

I thought it would be cool to create randomized opportunities for lucrative trade routes the player could take advantage of that would eventually dry up, eg a saloon needs 1000 T of witchfire delivered for a premium price, but the player isn't the only one bringing in the cargo.

I've never tried it, but from my reading of it isn't that roughly how New Cargoes works? I only haven't tried it yet because apparently it's old code and these months have been busy with other balance/tweak priorities.

Updated thoughts on optimal Oolite economy:
Ultimately I wish I could have made Demand Driven Economy  Risk Based Economy OXP work because to me it theoretically makes sense as a basic underlying model. Even if it had, it would have been only part of the optimal solution.  Real-Life Economics and  SW_Economy have sensible, real-world ideas that there's no reason not to incorporate in the fullness of time. It's just a matter of applying it to code (*sigh!*).

To summarise:
1. As per DDE RBE: Government type should affect price deviation from the average: with the most in Anarchies, the least in Democracies.
2. As per SWE: Planet tech level should affect what is available where. (Eg: no computers in lower than median average tech worlds)
3. As per R-LE: "Star clusters" of economy types and distances should be a thing. I agree with every word on that wiki page.

The above should be baseline economics. Optional extras for enthusiasts:
4. As per SWE: There's no reason not to throw in a few extra sensible commodities (Stranger had: Medicine/Oxygen/Water)
5. I would probably emulate real life and make "medicine" a highly regulated (frequently illegal) trade, roughly on par with firearms in  Smugglers.

Speaking of Smugglers, I've been tweaking prices for a while. Almost every cost is hideously low for the mountainous profit potentials. OK... Smugglers prices just made the list of things to spreadsheet!

Oh god just thinking about hashing all this out gave me an aneurysm

EDIT: damn it sorry, I somehow mixed up Demand-Driven Economy and Risk Based Economy!

[Redspear]

Ultimately I wish I could have made [EliteWiki] Demand Driven Economy work because to me it theoretically makes sense as a basic underlying model.

I both wrote and use this oxp so in what way doesn't it work for you?

I know it occasionally fails to generate the intended quantities (a fix for the next version) but despite this it should still work as described in Cholmondely's gloriously concise wiki write up.

It is due for an update when I have the time so feedback would be welcome.

[szaumix]

in what way doesn't it work for you?

I was going to say that my previously disordered suite of mods probably caused some kind of conflict when I last tried it (maybe around the start of this year?) but looking at it now I see that it's a script not a properties list so.. I don't know. I just remember concluding that it didn't work and being disappointed.

Looking at the code it seems simple enough that it actually shouldn't be causing problems unless it's fighting another script, meaning either my setup or testing was the problem.

EDIT: so while it's true I confused DDE and cim's RBE in my last post, I *also* remember thinking DDE didn't work. No idea why I thought that but it's reinstalled.

[Switeck]

Still on the hunt for perfect economic balance!

This begs the question (again): how hard should making money be?

Since this can be seen in scalar terms, the relevant factors would seem to be:
1. how long [in total gaming hours] should it take to save any given credit amount? (New ship, make it an iron ass, etc...)?
2. what do prices and rewards need to be to make that happen?

I guess it's time to spreadsheet every equipment item, commodity and bounty etc and see if I can define the economic model in actuarial terms.

In real gaming hours, if I don't savegame at every opportunity...any setback which I bother to reload-from-savegame can really decrease the credit-earning rate.
It's also not obvious how far back I need to reload if I fail a cargo contract delivery due to running out of ingame time...or inadvertently sell off some of the cargo!

It's also non-linear because of player skill and methods they use.
Torusing all the way to the main station? Really quick...if there's nothing in the way.
Fighting your way through large clumps of pirates in an Anarchy? Slow and can be very dangerous...with likely damage to your ship which incurs high costs, even if only refurbishment is needed more often.

Asteroid mining? With various OXPs/OXZs...that can be quite profitable, but unless you're using a side-shooting Mining Laser ...you are likely at a huge disadvantage in a big firefight.

Live the life of pure piracy with a constant high bounty on your head? Not visiting the main stations makes any system-to-system travel more difficult. Ship repair and resupply becomes problematic. Even using lots of savegames is difficult because of limited save options. I doubt that is quickly profitable, although I've never seriously tried to do it.

What lots of open world MMO games do is have massive money sinks in the "late-game" for players who've been playing for ages.
Oolite could do that by making ownership of multiple ships and stations possible... Then, your activities has to fund everything you own that has upkeep and losses.

I've considered modding Black Monks into a semi-realistic banking credit system...complete with lots of banking fees, very low interest, account freeze if an offender, and complete loss-of-account if you become a fugitive.
The in-game interface to do this is so clunky that I haven't bothered. (Such as when you want to deposit an exact amount less than all your credits on-hand?)
Loans are only possible on your "credit history" (how fast you last earned credits over a long period of time) and ability to repay from selling equipment off your ship. Loans won't be as bad as the existing version, but will keep you busy.

The other issue is what OXPs/OXZs are used. Even some "ambience" ones have hidden consequences, like more traders, pirates, and police due to the background populator script. More chances to "farm" other ships without leaving a system may make things more profitable and/or utterly suicidal if trying to fight the more+larger pirate groups.

[Stormrider]

I've never tried it, but from my reading of it isn't that roughly how New Cargoes works?

Similar, but I was thinking of a more open scenario with no contract, just a high demand for a specific product in specific system that would last long enough for the player to make a few profitable runs from the system that produces the product to the system with high demand. Modifying the main market to reduce profits would entice the player to take advantage of such opportunities.
Even though its just basically oolite's commodity contract system with fancy commodity names and competition New Cargoes is brilliant and I think it may be part of what led cim to develop the new market code that makes it much easier to modify the markets and commodities. That change to the base code was controversial, but I think it was beneficial because it allows us to change the economy with such ease.

Live the life of pure piracy with a constant high bounty on your head? Not visiting the main stations makes any system-to-system travel more difficult. Ship repair and resupply becomes problematic. Even using lots of savegames is difficult because of limited save options. I doubt that is quickly profitable, although I've never seriously tried to do it.

Actually when testing the manifest scanner I found it was fairly easy to be a pirate and maintain a clean status. I've even scooped escape pods from ships I took out, docked with the main station in the same system and collected the insurance with no offender status. Lone traders are like low hanging fruit, nothing like facing a pack of six or eight pirates. Even escorted ships aren't that tough to take out and once the ship being escorted is destroyed the escorts break off and go looking for another ship to escort. I've done this and let the escorts go and still maintained a clean status.

I've considered modding Black Monks into a semi-realistic banking credit system

I remember someone at one time suggesting loan payments on the player's ship to slow profit growth.

[Switeck]

I've considered modding Black Monks into a semi-realistic banking credit system

I remember someone at one time suggesting loan payments on the player's ship to slow profit growth.

That would be this:

https://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/First_Finance_OXP