Non-English Keyboard Problems

[Cody]

... the advice to new users has been to start with the core game, and then add OXP's to the game slowly...

This was always sound advice! Perhaps something along those lines needs to be added to the expansion manager's intro page?

[phkb]

Perhaps something along those lines needs to be added to the expansion manager's intro page?

If we were to be consistent, we'd need to add it to the expansion pack web page as well. Given my background in IT, we should theoretically add a confirmation page every time the player requests a new download, saying something like: "Are you sure you want to add this OXP to your game?" (Actually, that's not a bad idea anyway, particularly if we have part of the text configurable by the OXP, which could add some more information to the player about what the impacts on their game will be)

[Cody]

<nods>

[Cholmondely]

Perhaps something along those lines needs to be added to the expansion manager's intro page?

If we were to be consistent, we'd need to add it to the expansion pack web page as well. Given my background in IT, we should theoretically add a confirmation page every time the player requests a new download, saying something like: "Are you sure you want to add this OXP to your game?" (Actually, that's not a bad idea anyway, particularly if we have part of the text configurable by the OXP, which could add some more information to the player about what the impacts on their game will be)

So we'd have another folder created by the game: Unplayable AddOns/UnmanageableAddOns which the Expansions Manager would then download the unsure OXP into - or is it just a check on downloading in the first place?

If the second, we could then decide as we fired up which Oolite expansions we wanted this time around! And if there was a Strangers World meta-OXP, one might then easily disable all of strangers world at a click and move on to explore DGill's feudal paradise instead...

Running an AppleMac, and mucking about with the OXPs I play with, I'd appreciate being able to control the OXPs from within the game rather than much about manually (But I can happily survive without, as I have for the past year)! I have 4 different versions of Oolite on my menu bar (sad, what?) but the OXPs loaded for each come from the common pool in the just one AddOns folder and the just one Managed AddOns folder.

The above are notes, not complaints!

[Cholmondely]

I had a stab at rewriting the first page of the Oolite RS with the key-commands. It failed as a result of not being able to shrink the text any more and finding that OpenOffice was just too fiddly for this sort of thing (for me, at any rate).

I wanted to divide it up into 3 sections: Standard equipment, Optional Standard Equipment (needs buying), Optional Optional Equipment (OXP). And then divide the first section into Propulsive/Offensive/Astrogatory/Generic - and adding in Defensive/Mercantile for the rest if it made sense.

We currently have
63 key commands for the Standard Equipment and Game controls
12 key commands for the Optional Standard Equipment
8 key commands for the Optional Optional Equipment


Notes on the above:
63 key commands ignores the effects of shift on the commodities market transactions, but adds in the missing commodity markets filter/sort commands (/ & ?) to the old OoliteRS list
8 key commands adds v.1.90's ctrl-: & ctrl-; to the old OoliteRS list

For comparison: Cars
A Ford Ka automobile has some 29 controls (pedals, switches, etc). A Volvo V40 has some 92 controls (on-board computer, cruise control etc). In each case a fair number of the controls are to do with comfort (radio/heating/air conditioning etc - I've not counted seat adjustment controls!).

For comparison: planes
As for an airplane... or a helicopter... (half an hour of pre-flight checks before take-off for a plane, an entire hour of checks for a helicopter)!
See here: https://www.wideview.it/my_cockpit.htm (simulator, but "spaced out" so one can count...)
And there is an Instrument Flying Handbook downloadable here from the FAA: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... /aviation/
Just looking at the 2 navigation communication control panels on page 2-2 (2012 edition), they have 52 controls between them!

So there are two different concerns: Reality and Gaming.

For gaming the number of controls have to be manageable to make it easier to master. But there is also the matter of immersion to consider - which involves realism and fun. To be denied individual controls for ILS (which I use a far amount), for targeting enemies but also for targeting cargo pods & escape pods, and for barrel roll seems ridiculous to say the least. And shuffling through the various primables breaks the immersion. Not being able to prime some of them also breaks the immersion. Telescope badly needs more control buttons. Etc. Etc. Etc. And as for TeaMaker! No choice of types of tea. No choice of lemon slices or milk. No choice of milk in first or last. No choice of Jersey milk or Guernsey Milk. No choice of demerara sugar or white. I could easily go on and on but poor old Araminta would roll her eyeballs. The suffering I have to endure whilst playing Oolite is unconscionable... burble... whimper...

Oolite, the game which gives options can easily allow for this. Strict gaming to learn the ins and outs. Easier OXPs to start off with. And then more numerous key commands for when one has mastered matters and can cope with the increase in complexity.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Red Herring

The FAA site also has stuff for balloons and gliders if you want to have a stab with Big Blimpy, here



or this one

From http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/MandotechOvoids: Mandotech Ovoids

[Cholmondely]

This is a list of everything I have so far found of any possible use:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Language

[hiran]

I wanted to divide it up into 3 sections: Standard equipment, Optional Standard Equipment (needs buying), Optional Optional Equipment (OXP). And then divide the first section into Propulsive/Offensive/Astrogatory/Generic - and adding in Defensive/Mercantile for the rest if it made sense.

Errr - I did not understand Optional vs Optional Optional Equipment. Now that you put a marker at that I think there should be some better name.

But looking at the fact that novice players should actually start on the vanilla game:
How about having to earn further OXPs? You can choose which one to install after having played Oolite for some time. The price of the OXP would then be hours playing. That could ensure a player has sufficient experience before sitting in the ISD...

63 key commands ignores the effects of shift on the commodities market transactions, but adds in the missing commodity markets filter/sort commands (/ & ?) to the old OoliteRS list
8 key commands adds v.1.90's ctrl-: & ctrl-; to the old OoliteRS list[/size]

Is that all keys to control the ship/equipment/... or did you also add the keys to control Oolite (the simulator) as well? Although I believe there is not really much to control on the simulator.

Oolite, the game which gives options can easily allow for this. Strict gaming to learn the ins and outs. Easier OXPs to start off with. And then more numerous key commands for when one has mastered matters and can cope with the increase in complexity.
[/quote]
Ha, I started writing my command without having read yours fully. Now that I am getting there - we are having the same idea.

[Cholmondely]

I wanted to divide it up into 3 sections: Standard equipment, Optional Standard Equipment (needs buying), Optional Optional Equipment (OXP). And then divide the first section into Propulsive/Offensive/Astrogatory/Generic - and adding in Defensive/Mercantile for the rest if it made sense.

Errr - I did not understand Optional vs Optional Optional Equipment. Now that you put a marker at that I think there should be some better name.

Standard equipment comes with the initial Cobra Mk.III. The in-game Tutorial teaches the use of most of it.

Standard Optional Equipment: Optional Equipment can be bought & fitted using the F3 screen while docked at a station. It takes time! This is available to all players. These items are found in the Vanilla game and are non-OXP/OXZ.

Optional Optional Equipment: You opt into these options by loading the relevant OXPs. Unlike the Standard Optional Equipment which comes with the Vanilla game, these pieces of equipment are missing from it and require you to have downloaded the relevant OXP. No complete list, sorry! There are some 20-odd weapon OXZs alone - some of which contain dozens of variations on the theme! New stuff (like barrel roll) gets invented all the time, whilst other stuff gets left behind as Oolite develops and the OXP originators disappear back into RL (real life).

So, of course, if you end up flying the Imperial Star Destroyer, these distinctions are meaningless as it comes with both "standard optional" & "optional optional equipment" fitted as standard: Advanced Space Compass, Wormhole Scanner, Docking Computers, a Galactic Hyperdrive, & External Heat Shielding. 2 Fuel Injectors. Shield Boosters & Military Shield Enhancement, Scanner Targeting Enhancement & Multi-Targeting System. ECM & Escape Pod, ECM & Escape Pod. These are all Optional Standard. Naval Energy Unit is treated as mythical in the literature and the Military Scanner Filter is not even mentioned! Unsure if they count as standard optional, mythical or something else!

Then you get the OXP specials: Tie fighters, lambda shuttle, Tie fighter factory
And then you also get (depending on what you have installed as OXPs): Telescope, and its amplifying Gravity Scanner & Large Dish. Heavy Sniper Guns. Etc. All these count as Optional optionals! If you have not downloaded the OXPs you get none of them!

[phkb]

Optional Optional Equipment:

While there are some excellent OXPs out there that I feel add a lot to the game experience, it’s probably best, from the core game documentation standpoint, to keep things as simple and generic as possible. Mentioning that OXPs are available to expand or enhance the game is one thing. Actually mentioning specific OXPs comes scarily close to recommending them, which the core game can’t do. Aside from the support issues such recommendations create (ie if there’s a bug in the OXP, who is responsible for correcting it if it’s been “recommended” by the core game?), there is the issue of user choice. One player’s “must have” list is another player’s “never touch” list. This is a minefield of individual preferences that can never really be resolved, and doesn’t have to be if we stay clear of mentioning specific OXPs.

[Cody]

This is a minefield of individual preferences that can never really be resolved

<chortles> Ain't that the truth!

[hiran]

I wanted to divide it up into 3 sections: Standard equipment, Optional Standard Equipment (needs buying), Optional Optional Equipment (OXP). And then divide the first section into Propulsive/Offensive/Astrogatory/Generic - and adding in Defensive/Mercantile for the rest if it made sense.

Errr - I did not understand Optional vs Optional Optional Equipment. Now that you put a marker at that I think there should be some better name.

Standard equipment comes with the initial Cobra Mk.III. The in-game Tutorial teaches the use of most of it.

Standard Optional Equipment: Optional Equipment can be bought & fitted using the F3 screen while docked at a station. It takes time! This is available to all players. These items are found in the Vanilla game and are non-OXP/OXZ.

Optional Optional Equipment: You opt into these options by loading the relevant OXPs. Unlike the Standard Optional Equipment which comes with the Vanilla game, these pieces of equipment are missing from it and require you to have downloaded the relevant OXP. No complete list, sorry! There are some 20-odd weapon OXZs alone - some of which contain dozens of variations on the theme! New stuff (like barrel roll) gets invented all the time, whilst other stuff gets left behind as Oolite develops and the OXP originators disappear back into RL (real life).

So, of course, if you end up flying the Imperial Star Destroyer, these distinctions are meaningless as it comes with both "standard optional" & "optional optional equipment" fitted as standard: Advanced Space Compass, Wormhole Scanner, Docking Computers, a Galactic Hyperdrive, & External Heat Shielding. 2 Fuel Injectors. Shield Boosters & Military Shield Enhancement, Scanner Targeting Enhancement & Multi-Targeting System. ECM & Escape Pod, ECM & Escape Pod. These are all Optional Standard. Naval Energy Unit is treated as mythical in the literature and the Military Scanner Filter is not even mentioned! Unsure if they count as standard optional, mythical or something else!

Then you get the OXP specials: Tie fighters, lambda shuttle, Tie fighter factory
And then you also get (depending on what you have installed as OXPs): Telescope, and its amplifying Gravity Scanner & Large Dish. Heavy Sniper Guns. Etc. All these count as Optional optionals! If you have not downloaded the OXPs you get none of them!

These categories are clear to me now. Thank you. I still believe they read strange to outsiders.

Probably we should talk about equipment (and mean standard equipment and standard optional equipment). From there on we can tell a user how to check what equipment is installed on his ship. If need be we can also document what the default ship comes with as a default. No need to put an extra category here. Finally we can point out that expansions may add further equipment - this would have to be looked up in the respective OXP's documentation. Again one less category users need a name for.

I would not eradicate all those categories but also stop throwing them at users. After all during gameplay it is completely meaningless whether my non-Cobra MK3 ship contains equipment from one of the three categories. At that point in time it is only meaningful where to read more about it.
Or, if you hear other players having that nice purple laser and you want it too to have somewhere that tells you which OXP to install.

Thus I believe the documentation can be cleaned from such wording for the sake of readability.

[phkb]

OK, here's my first pass at adding a page to the Oolite RS doc: OoliteRS page 5.pdf
Obviously, feedback, tweaks, suggestions and comments welcome.

[hiran]

OK, here's my first pass at adding a page to the Oolite RS doc: OoliteRS page 5.pdf
Obviously, feedback, tweaks, suggestions and comments welcome.

I think we spoke about some documentation for the vanilla game that users should be familiar with before looking at OXPs.
The first paragraph about MFDs and the first paragraph about primable equipment already directs users towards OXPs. Is that really necessary?
Could we, for beginners, focus on what is possible without OXPs and just describe how to use the existing HUD and primable equipment? Somehow I think there is a list already...

[Cody]

OK, here's my first pass at adding a page to the Oolite RS doc:

Looking good so far! Another "the" is needed in "The first is "0" key" bit.

[Cholmondely]

OK, here's my first pass at adding a page to the Oolite RS doc: OoliteRS page 5.pdf
Obviously, feedback, tweaks, suggestions and comments welcome.

I think we spoke about some documentation for the vanilla game that users should be familiar with before looking at OXPs.
The first paragraph about MFDs and the first paragraph about primable equipment already directs users towards OXPs. Is that really necessary?
Could we, for beginners, focus on what is possible without OXPs and just describe how to use the existing HUD and primable equipment? Somehow I think there is a list already...

But, Hiran, when you joined this board your issues seemed to be with all the OXP stuff. And, much more importantly, you are not alone in that. The old model of starting with Strict and the Tutorial was fine for those who came to Oolite from Elite, and understood that approach (those of us of elderly mien and wizened countenance). Nowadays, teenagers come along and download whatever they like - I rather doubt that dear old Mausnoab Williamston was hunched over a BBC four decades ago launching from Lave. If we are too strict in this regard, will they go elsewhere? Will we end up scaring away those who come and look?