A question of lore

[Redspear]

I don't know. It would depend upon (amongst other things) how thought works. But as a story can manipulate an audience (with varying degrees of success) so might an environment (socio-economic/political/geographic etc.)

Culture for example may be a product of circumstance rather than inherent difference (and I think there's quite a lot of evidence for that). To attempt to isolate an individual's thoughts might seem to be another matter entirely but then how separate are they in the first place? Can they be predicted by knowing enough in advance about an individual and their exposure to various environments?

Maybe they can't but then marketing (for example) doesn't need to work all of the time, just some of the time - and it not only knows it's own success rate but continues to improve it.

[Disembodied]

Interstellar communications: possible? If so, how? Mailships?

Personally, I'd go with mail having to be physically moved from place to place, with the fastest thing in the universe being a FTL starship. Primarily, that's because I want the fictional universe to diverge as much as possible from the present day. Today, we're used to reliable, near-instantaneous communication with pretty much anywhere, and even in the unconnected parts of the planet it's not too much of a stretch to take portable kit with you that will link you to anywhere you want (whether it always works is another matter). So having to send physical mail by ship pushes things further away from the present-day experience. You can encrypt your vital message any way you want, but you still have to put the precious packet in the hands of the best courier you can find, and hope that their ship makes it there on time and in one piece.

FTL communication has major repercussions, even in-game: what are the prices of Furs like, over there? And it would inevitably bind the Co-operative closer together. If it takes moments (or even just hours) to pass a message from Lave to Inines, instead of weeks, then you have a very different political and economic climate.

Which is not to say that someone might have developed a system which can send messages FTL … or be working on something which promises to. That would attract a LOT of interest, not all of it healthy. Of course, there are people who sell maps to lost mines, or perpetual-motion machines: it could be a scam. Or it could, when ramped up for its first Big Test, violate the laws of physics in unforeseen ways, with exciting consequences.

[Redspear]

Of course, there are people who sell maps to lost mines, or perpetual-motion machines: it could be a scam. Or it could, when ramped up for its first Big Test, violate the laws of physics in unforeseen ways, with exciting consequences.

If there was a sufficiently advanced probability generator then in effect you'd have an oracle. If a world were sufficiently low tech that they might be comparable with Earth of a few hundred years ago, then shuttles and transporters are the vehicles of the Gods and 'legends' of an oracle might be quite real... or not, depends upon other factors including interactions between planet and GalCop

[Cody]

Personally, I'd go with mail having to be physically moved from place to place, with the fastest thing in the universe being a FTL starship.

Speaking as an interstellar courier - one of the finest in the Eight - I quite understandably like the idea of mailships.

Mind you, quantum metaphysics in an impossible universe has its attractions too!

[Disembodied]

If there was a sufficiently advanced probability generator then in effect you'd have an oracle. If a world were sufficiently low tech that they might be comparable with Earth of a few hundred years ago, then shuttles and transporters are the vehicles of the Gods and 'legends' of an oracle might be quite real... or not, depends upon other factors including interactions between planet and GalCop

Very true, and I like the idea that the Co-operative encompasses planets ranging from the Stone Age to hyperadvanced … although I don't think it's necessary for all Stone Age peoples to believe in gods and magic. There can be huge issues of culture shock, but I think you can get really interesting things happening where high- and low-technology societies meet. Fleeting interactions might cause cargo cults, but long-term exposure will habituate societies to each other - plus they'll rapidly understand that the people using these amazing devices are still just people. Plus, of course, most high-tech people might well have only the vaguest idea as to how their techno-geewhizzery works.

Mind you, quantum metaphysics in an impossible universe has its attractions too!

And maybe the FTL communication might be oracular in nature: it might need someone with a more shamanistic frame of mind, who can set out on a spirit-journey …

[Cody]

...it might need someone with a more shamanistic frame of mind, who can set out on a spirit-journey …

Oh, I'm right up for some shamanistic dream-walking/spirit-journeying, especially when psychotropics are used to cross the boundaries between worlds. I managed to work a healthy dose of it into Inside Straight. The long-ago reading of Carlos Castaneda's novels is partly to blame for that.

[hiran]

Advanced probability calculators (AI?)

Might seem a bit like a game of Cluedo but with sufficent incoming traffic (guesses) from sufficient systems (players) then it's theoretically possible to 'reliably guess' the nature of events in a given system anywhere on the map with a predictably degree of accuracy.

That might not sound like the 'communication' you perhaps had in mind but with enough data the difference might not be that significant.

Sounds like a bigdata approach. So with enough data and enough distance from the actual messages the patterns become apparent, and the AI would just be able to detect and understand the patterns.

But this process would not be reversible - from enough messaging you get the patterns. From the patterns you cannot conclude on the messages - or can you?

[Redspear]

although I don't think it's necessary for all Stone Age peoples to believe in gods and magic. There can be huge issues of culture shock, but I think you can get really interesting things happening where high- and low-technology societies meet.

Both of those words (gods and magic) are so inherently vague/variable that what little consistency they have is to discuss an unseen power. In essence theories to explain the unknown or effects thereof. String theory and dark matter attempt to do similar, do they not?

Yeah, I know, scientific method, dogma, belief etc. My point is not to weigh their relative merits but rather to claim that the desire to explain without knowing is strong and gods and magic (however well thought through or not) offer a certain convenience such that I can't think of a low tech culture (present day or otherwise) that doesn't feature them prominently. Indeed they survive in high tech ones.

Fleeting interactions might cause cargo cults, but long-term exposure will habituate societies to each other - plus they'll rapidly understand that the people using these amazing devices are still just people. Plus, of course, most high-tech people might well have only the vaguest idea as to how their techno-geewhizzery works.

Unless... There is limited, controlled/staged contact. The messengers may be mighty but if they serve the gods then how mighty must the gods be? It could be uncovered of course, and likely one day would be, but it might still serve those employing the deception sufficiently well to maintain it as best they could, likely with Draconian landing restrictions.

But this process would not be reversible - from enough messaging you get the patterns. From the patterns you cannot conclude on the messages - or can you?

Truth is that I don't know however... If I know what's happened to you very recently then that might help me to guess your mood, right? If I know your history then I might be able to guess your priorities. If I also know your interactions, school reports, writings, purchase history etc then might I be able to guess with relatively high accuracy what you might be thinking? If I also know similar about next to everyone else then might I be able to predict what you'd wish to communicate?

This interpretation of data could lead to issues around honesty/deception, imperfect interpretation and false alarms. There's also the free will thing and originality of thought. If your choices are restricted by your options and dictated by your nature and experience however then they might be highly predictable. Originality of thought might simply be a product of a unique individual in a circumstance they have not encountered before.

Crucially, it wouldn't have to be completely true in order for it to be potentially useful. If I could predict with 95% certainty in most situations then that might be enough to tempt me to assume I know things when I actually don't. Near omniscience may be more likely to make someone foolish than wise.

[hiran]

But this process would not be reversible - from enough messaging you get the patterns. From the patterns you cannot conclude on the messages - or can you?

Truth is that I don't know however... If I know what's happened to you very recently then that might help me to guess your mood, right? If I know your history then I might be able to guess your priorities. If I also know your interactions, school reports, writings, purchase history etc then might I be able to guess with relatively high accuracy what you might be thinking? If I also know similar about next to everyone else then might I be able to predict what you'd wish to communicate?

This interpretation of data could lead to issues around honesty/deception, imperfect interpretation and false alarms. There's also the free will thing and originality of thought. If your choices are restricted by your options and dictated by your nature and experience however then they might be highly predictable. Originality of thought might simply be a product of a unique individual in a circumstance they have not encountered before.

Crucially, it wouldn't have to be completely true in order for it to be potentially useful. If I could predict with 95% certainty in most situations then that might be enough to tempt me to assume I know things when I actually don't. Near omniscience may be more likely to make someone foolish than wise.

So you actually agree that from the patterns you can predict a likelyhood, but not the exact message or date and time, or the words that someone would use to send a message.

I also agree that it may not be necessary to predict everything. While for some atoms or electrons we are not able to tell their whereabouts, just some probabilities where they might be. Assemble them to a cannonball, and we can quite well predict how it will fly through the air and where it will hit. To the extent that allows us to fire voyager spaceships through our solar system, using swing-by maneuvers to accumulate velocity and ultimately leave the solar system.

It is very much with information. You do not have to have the full resolution (down to every pixel) to understand the picture or message.

In means of knowledge this power for the knowing over the lot. And it has already happened.

[Redspear]

So you actually agree that from the patterns you can predict a likelyhood, but not the exact message or date and time, or the words that someone would use to send a message.

If however the refinement of that method were such that you could predict the likelihood of the exact message and time then you have a tool both powerful and dangerous, especially to the user. Welcome to the techo-occult... tread carefully.

In means of knowledge this power for the knowing over the lot. And it has already happened.

We're using different phraseology I think but essentially, with perhaps minimal translation, yes.

[Cholmondely]

So you actually agree that from the patterns you can predict a likelyhood, but not the exact message or date and time, or the words that someone would use to send a message.

If however the refinement of that method were such that you could predict the likelihood of the exact message and time then you have a tool both powerful and dangerous, especially to the user. Welcome to the techo-occult... tread carefully.

In means of knowledge this power for the knowing over the lot. And it has already happened.

We're using different phraseology I think but essentially, with perhaps minimal translation, yes.

It would be fun to have an astrology.oxp in Oolite. Especially one which actually modified things! (With Riedquat in the ascendant and Ascension in opposition, Slave prices will be slashed...)

[Cody]

Welcome to the techo-occult... tread carefully.

Technomancy?

[Redspear]

Welcome to the techo-occult... tread carefully.

Technomancy?

In the divinatory sense, yes.

Which in turn raises the question of the divine and it's nature not just its existence.

[hiran]

It would be fun to have an astrology.oxp in Oolite. Especially one which actually modified things! (With Riedquat in the ascendant and Ascension in opposition, Slave prices will be slashed...)

I do not want to think of the outcome when thargoids line up on the witchspace lobster...

[Cody]

I do not want to think of the outcome when thargoids line up on the witchspace lobster...

Perhaps the Witchspace Lobster is in fact a Thargoid...