Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

[Cody]

The Boa mk II is just too good IMHO

Yeah, it's always puzzled me!

[Redspear]

The Boa mk II is just too good IMHO

Yeah, it's always puzzled me!

And the Boa mk I has a fat rear end that makes rescaling it a pain!

So I'm using this 'canonical' cheat:

Although marginally smaller than the Python, which it superseded, the Boa has a greater cargo capacity due to refinements in equipment design

If I rescale around the moray then I'd only need to increase station sizes by about 10%, a lot better than the 33% required if it were the mk III.
The boa has been rescaled by the same proportion as the anaconda because it's 'backside' is of similar (expansive) dimensions.

Here's the pic (blacked out ships to be researched/estimated/left alone)...



So barring futher discussion (and perhaps posting my calculations/formulae, simple as they are) I think I can oxp this and give it a whirl.

If anyone's keen to test then let me know, it should be a very simple oxp to write (ignoring the equipment restrictions for now).
I would recommend doing so without any other oxp ships present however - both more efficient from a testing point of view and also less confusing with oxp ship variants.

It could be the basis of reforming one of my other oxps, but that's for the future...

[Cody]

So barring futher discussion...

These days, the core Viper Interceptor is identical in size to the core Viper (50.000 x 18.136 x 65.199).
The only differences being performance, hyperspace capability (or perhaps not?), and an extra drive.


I think the wiki may need correcting. Cholly...

[hiran]

So barring futher discussion...

These days, the core Viper Interceptor is identical in size to the core Viper (50.000 x 18.136 x 65.199).
The only differences being performance, hyperspace capability (or perhaps not?), and an extra drive.


I think the wiki may need correcting. Cholly...

<getting interested> Whoa, could that mean we are going to document the ships?

[Cholmondely]

So barring further discussion...

These days, the core Viper Interceptor is identical in size to the core Viper (50.000 x 18.136 x 65.199).
The only differences being performance, hyperspace capability (or perhaps not?), and an extra drive.


I think the wiki may need correcting. Cholly...

<getting interested> Whoa, could that mean we are going to document the ships?

Hiran, are they not already documented? Or do you mean something else by this?

Cody, our wiki says:
Viper: 50m×16m×55m
Viper Interceptor: 64m×20m×64m

My problem is, I'm uneasy with the ships as I have no real feel for them. I have no idea what they should be like, and have merely read various critiques here claiming that they are all the same, with no idea as to whether or not this is true.

5) Every ship is multi-role, and most of them are terrible at it. Freighters like the Python and Boa are basically just much bigger versions of the Mamba or Sidewinder - they fly about the same, they're just slightly tougher (and not even that much tougher). Compare with something like Tie Fighter or Freespace where a freighter is very definitely not a slightly bigger fighter.

I'm happy to edit stuff about this if told what to do. But what do our Admirals and Montana05 say? Or others with a good feel for the ships? Will we also need to make changes in the Vanilla game? And... why were they changed in the first place? Surely people knew what they were doing?

The interceptor has a third engine, so unless there are major differences in engine technology - or unless there is no room for prisoners etc, it should be larger, surely... as our wiki says...

[Cholmondely]

Some more thoughts.

We have a number of possible parallel games already. For example, SW Economy really changes trade from the Vanilla game (many small low GDP planets produce virtually nothing for export etc). Really, one could do with mirroring the trade information with that for SW Economy (which I'd merrily do if I had enough knowledge to calculate it all - the trade tables for the various systems in Sector 1, for example - and, more fun, a revised Traders Almanach...).

But how should it all be presented on the wiki?

Also, with Hiran & Josef taking an interest, there really is no reason not to have a german language section on our wiki... but how should it be blended in with what we already have there?

[montana05]

These days, the core Viper Interceptor is identical in size to the core Viper (50.000 x 18.136 x 65.199).
I think the wiki may need correcting. Cholly...

Cody, our wiki says:
Viper: 50m×16m×55m
Viper Interceptor: 64m×20m×64m

My problem is, I'm uneasy with the ships as I have no real feel for them. I have no idea what they should be like, and have merely read various critiques here claiming that they are all the same, with no idea as to whether or not this is true.

Just updated the dimensions according to the current core models. As much as I can remember, another model with a different size for the interceptor exists, most likely from Griff. For a future version of Oolite it might make sense to use a larger interceptor again.

[Cholmondely]

These days, the core Viper Interceptor is identical in size to the core Viper (50.000 x 18.136 x 65.199).
I think the wiki may need correcting. Cholly...

Cody, our wiki says:
Viper: 50m×16m×55m
Viper Interceptor: 64m×20m×64m

My problem is, I'm uneasy with the ships as I have no real feel for them. I have no idea what they should be like, and have merely read various critiques here claiming that they are all the same, with no idea as to whether or not this is true.

Just updated the dimensions according to the current core models. As much as I can remember, another model with a different size for the interceptor exists, most likely from Griff. For a future version of Oolite it might make sense to use a larger interceptor again.

Do we know when and why it was changed?

[Cody]

Do we know when and why it was changed?

When Griff put his shipset together, one-by-one, he omitted/forgot the Interceptor. For some reason, he didn't go back and create a new model, he just added a third drive to the Viper model. Time passed. Solo de-shadered the shipset, and that was eventually adopted as the core shipset.

I think I've got that right - haven't had morning coffee yet.

[Redspear]

Do we know when and why it was changed?

I'd guess it was when Griff's shipset was adopted as standard. Both of his vipers had essentially the same model I believe (agreeing with Cody here it seems).

We have a number of possible parallel games already

This is the problem with a wiki for a highly (and repeatedly) moddable game...

When Smivs made his 'classics' shipsets for example, images of aegidian's originals were replaced rather than added to and I for one missed the original paint job on the python cruiser (the download didn't disappear but I believe the image did). Probably 9 out of every 10 would have preferred Smivs take on it however, so was it wrong to replace rather than add?

When a cobra mk IV was (re)made last year(?) the newer Griff mk III model was used for it, even though that was the most like the original mk III design according to some, meaning anyone using that texture for the mk III might need a rethink. Besides, how many versions of a mk IV have there been within oolite?

Even for this little project (likely to be on a new thread within 'Expansions') I'm considering using both the 20 and 35 TC cobra models, one as a smaller but faster mk IV - that way I can be faithful to the Elite text and also add at least a significant nod to the oolite starting experience (no large cargo bay for my mkIV though) that many know so well. What would that do to the wiki?

If you look up the page for the boa then there's a story about it "gobbling up" an ophidian with its scoop. Not only is this not currently possible within the game but Griff's version of the ophidian was larger than previous versions and with a greater cargo capacity (as he identified a gap between cobras and python). So arguably his ophidian is a completely different ship that just happens to have a very similar model and an identical name. So then the story not only goes unrepresented in game but also becomes ridiculous when considering Griff's version of the ophidian.

But how should it all be presented on the wiki?

I think that the great ambition that everything be not only represented but also integrated is increasingly problematic the more the game gets modded. It might start with simple things like, "That ship name's already been taken", but then it turns into, "The mk III does 0.35LM... except in some OXPs where it does 0.3LM", and eventually, "The following trade goods are controlled... except here where the following are controlled instead, unless you've installed X in which case it's these goods but not if you've installed Y where those goods are replaced by these".

Personally, and this is just my opinion which I'm not entirely convinced by, I think the wiki should document most things according to the core game. Someone like me is going to tweak a whole bunch of stuff to their individual liking and it's only going to present a 'problem' because someone's already 'defined' a cobra mk IV for example. And someone else is not going to want 'their' game, or even 'the' wiki, polluted by 'my' imaginings. Better perhaps to place such in carefully labeled, sealed jars, confined to their own pages for players to open if they wish and remain sealed if they don't

Suppose I oxp this thing and make 'tiny' kraits with 1 energy bank, I don't think anyone should be editing the krait page to reflect that. A page for this theoretical (but now likely) oxp that explained the changes would be enough.

Sure, it's great when oxps play nicely together but if we can't allow them not to then we get a kind of canalisation that restricts creativity where people are modding according to others oxps rather than to the core game. "I want to make the fastest ship in the game", that's likely not going anywhere good when more than one person thinks that.

These days, the core Viper Interceptor is identical in size to the core Viper (50.000 x 18.136 x 65.199).

That would affect where I scale from but not where I scale to, if that makes sense... More speed/engines will make it larger unless it were significantly more fragile.

[Cody]

... (agreeing with Cody here it seems)

<chuckles>

the newer Griff mk III model was used for it, even though that was the most like the original mk III design according to some

Griff's late-model Cobra Mk III (which I fly) is much closer to the original Elite model.
I'm reasonably certain that the Interceptor was hyperspace-capable - but no longer!

[Redspear]

Griff's late-model Cobra Mk III (which I fly) is much closer to the original Elite model.

We're agreeing far too often lately, I'll clearly have to up my outrageousness

I'm reasonably certain that the Interceptor was hyperspace-capable, but no longer!

Ah, that I didn't know.

I thought it still was but then why would it need to be? Once the 'perps' have left the system then job done surely? Why chase them as a lone patrol to a likely more dangerous system? Also, for the fugitive player, hyperspace then becomes an important (if desperate) escape.

[Cody]

I'm reasonably certain that the Interceptor was hyperspace-capable

I don't think it was ever in the relevant AI though. I've certainly never seen one hyperspace out, nor been pursued by one.

[montana05]

I'm reasonably certain that the Interceptor was hyperspace-capable - but no longer!

Actually, the Interceptor still has a hyperdrive.

[Cody]

Actually, the Interceptor still has a hyperdrive.

It does? I can't see it in the core shipdata.plist - am I missing something?