New Jameson here, some initial feedback

[Redspear]

I'm not sure about the following ideas but they would both be simple (a quality I rate highly).

Distance from centre of galaxy = degree of stability

• Centre is where the 'action' is, outskirts much safer
• Visually intuitive - avoid the middle if you want to play safe
• Lave is on the outskirts of the map so its environs would be relatively safe

Might be a suitable model if GalCop were 'clinging on' to order with brazen pirates drawn to the central areas where most of the trade passes through.
A model that were 'the other way around' (eye of the storm) might represent a strong GalCop control - arguably less interesting story wise and would also make Zaonce et. al. rather dangerous.

Galaxy # is inversely proportional to stability

• The higher the galaxy number the more dangerous it is
• Grants an actual 'point' to the different 'galaxies'
• Galaxy 1, being were the player starts, would be the safest

Would sort of establish Galaxy 1 as GalCop HQ or at least its area of greatest control.
Could have 8 stability ratings for a bit of consistency (just as there are 8 governments and 8 non-human inhabitant types). Would make a galactic jump like entering a new game level - the visual marker being the galactic jump itself.

Regarding variance... My earlier suggestion of + or minus 1 could still apply and / or (especially if using 8 stability rankings) could combine with both of my suggestions in this post. Then Leesti would be one of the safest systems around, being on the outskirts of galaxy 1.

Possible 8 stability ratings:

Strong
Stable
Established
Average
Fledgling
Unstable
Weak
Precarious

[Redspear]

Thinking some more...

If the following are desirable:

• Minimum change
• Simplicity
• Clarity
• Use of pre-existing elements

Maybe the 'galaxies' are the pools and the variance is provided purely by the government type.


No new rating, no complex mechanic, governments influence strategic choice (re player navigation) and galaxies are like difficulty levels. Pools already exist and are clearly defined requiring a distinct visual cue in their means of travel (galactic hyperdrive).


On Variance

Whether pre or post influential neighbours, some parts of the map are more dangerous than others and a 7LY range is just small enough to create some bottlenecks; including some dangerous ones that a courier might need to pass through. So, the 'here be dragons', 'edge of the map' stuff can occur naturally and (to a degree) already does. Government type does already create variance amongst the map (although perhaps less distinctively in 'post change' versions) and so no +1/-1 mechanic is needed.


On Difficulty

So if the variance is already there then the pools could be the various galaxies. Whilst they do each have their own flavour due to the quirks of system distribution, these aren't immediately evident until you have done some exploring (likely quite a bit of exploring). The other core game difference that I'm aware of is that some of the missions are only available in various galaxies

Difficulty needn't ramp up with galaxy number, or at least not always.
For example

Galaxy 1 Easy
Galaxy 2 Some Challenge
Galaxy 3 Moderate
Galaxy 4 Hard
Galaxy 5 Very Hard
Galaxy 6 Hard
Galaxy 7 Moderate
Galaxy 8 Some Challenge

That's 5 difficulty levels spread across 8 galaxies. If the bell curve nature of the progression (up the hill and then down the hill) is a bit annoying on the 'descent' then swap the difficult of galaxies 6 and 8 and you then have 2 climbs (one big, one small) each with a little break inbetween. I think that could work well.

Might be even better if the player could jump backwards as well as forwards (oxpable I think...)

Ways to simulate difficulty? Besides pirate numbers (as discussed earlier) there's also accuracy. A default accuracy rating (or at least a mean) for each galaxy would certainly vary the challenge but I think pirate numbers would be the preferable currency else the games risks becoming arcade like.


On Gameplay

So why would the player ever leave the relatively cosy confines of galaxy 1?

According to  Oolite Missions there are core missions that take place in galaxies 1 to 5, some of which offer considerable rewards, so that's one mission for each jump in difficulty. Besides the mission items, some of the equipment that wasn't available in the original elite could make suitable lures. Shield Boosters and Military Shields could be good and perhaps the Wormhole Scanner; all non-essential (not sure about the missions...) but very useful and not particularly cheap either. Integrated targeting system could be another...

Galaxy 1 Base equipment
Galaxy 2 Integrated Targeting System
Galaxy 3 Wormhole Scanner
Galaxy 4 Shield Boosters
Galaxy 5 Military Shields

Once you leave galaxy 5 the difficulty drops and so it becomes about player choice: which galaxy do you prefer and how do you like the play.

There are other lures besides equipment. Aegidian included/added some powerful ships besides the core elite ones. The boa cruiser is very powerful and then there were his oxp creations: Asp Special; Mussurana; Python Cruiser; Python ET Special; Cobra Mk II. Staer9's shipset renders most of those in Griff like appearance (by stretching and tweaking Griff originals), and its other ships are from versions of elite or elite inspired games. In fact it contains 14 new non core ships - enough for two per galaxy not including the first (starting pool).

One of the first 'tweaks' I ever made to elite was to change which oxps I used whenever I changed galaxy, in an effort to give each one a different flavour (e.g. different core shipset for each galaxy). I found it to be fun but hampered by the circular route enforced by the use of the galactic hyperdrive. That too is likey oxpable: jump initiated, console message, "select view to choose destination galaxy", fore = +1; aft = -1; left = -2; right = +2, "maintain view for jump to galactic sector #'.


If...

The equipment and ship ideas are all extra, the missions could be sufficient to provide the main incentive.
All that is needed would be:

• Revert to old model of non-influential neighbours
• Derive influence instead from galaxy number.

e.g. using the 'two hills' model and representing influencing nature of each galaxy as if it were a government type (anarchy most dangerous, corporate least...)

Galaxy 1 Corporate
Galaxy 2 Confederacy
Galaxy 3 Dictatorship
Galaxy 4 Feudal
Galaxy 5 Anarchy
Galaxy 6 Democracy
Galaxy 7 Communist
Galaxy 8 Multi-Government

So in galaxy 1 every system would be treated as if the only influencing system were a corporate system (safer than usual). Meanwhile in galaxy 5 every system is treated as if neighboured by an anarchic system.

[Cholmondely]

1. Remove influence of Riedquat et. al. on neighboring systems (within the 'paddling pool' area)

Riedquat could remain an anarchy but for whichever reason you might choose, it's pirates not stray to nearby Diso. Could be an honour thing - real pirates aren't afraid of competition. Otherwise it makes sense for only the toughest pirate groups to try their luck in the safer systems, making them not that safe at all... I prefer to think that the police have already 'won that war' and so only desperate, lone pirates who can't get near the front of the queue in an Anarchy might try their luck.

Riedquat is an anarchy - that describes its government (and with a very broad brushstroke - see the descriptions on pp47-9 of the original Elite Manual).

But that label does not have to describe the level of piracy in the solar system. Maybe the local ethos engenders local knights in shining armour who suppress the local pirate scourge - and thus inhibit the local pirates from flying to Diso/Leesti? Or maybe Diso & Leesti run regular patrols in Riedquat to root out pirates and protect their trade. Or maybe even the Diso & Leesti merchants sponsor assassins to cull Riedquat's pirates.

So it could very well be that Riedquat is therefore less pirate infested - and really just has its major problems trickling down from Uszaa to the 'north'.

And ... this could of course change over time as Uszaa's influence undermines that of Diso & Leesti.

Riedquat might just be the local exception that proves the anarchic rule!

[Redspear]

Riedquat might just be the local exception that proves the anarchic rule!

Not sure if you're in support of the idea or not here but to be clear from my point of view...

The reasoning is less important than the effect. If the 'home systems' were to become the 'paddling pool' that disembodied suggested then the influence of dangerous neighbours on even safe systems traffic would likely need to be neutered in some way.

But that label does not have to describe the level of piracy in the solar system

You're right; however, it's my opinion that it's most useful when it does.

Government type used to be a reliable indicator of danger level. As such it was not particularly realistic but was enormously useful to the player (and even the oxp writer in some instances).

[ash73]

Hi, another noob here, long time classic Elite player, I've tried ED and didn't much like the game, quite liked Elite The New Kind (in wireframe mode it looked like the perfect 8-bit Elite) but no analogue joystick support, Archie Elite is still my favourite I guess... so thought I'd give OOlite a try.

Anyhow, first impressions... Sorry but it's terrible. The controls feel child like, it doesn't feel right to fly, it feels on rails. It's pretty to look at, but weird having no engine sound after playing ED. And the pathetic pew-pew laser you get when you start out just made me laugh.

Also its too complicated, why do you have to target things and ask for docking permission? What does it add to the game? Just fly into the station like the original. I glanced at all the keyboard controls and grimaced, I just CBA with stuff like that.

Obviously not the game for me, but one thing I wanted to ask, have the developers thought about trying a real-physics control system? By that I mean thrusters and realistic freedom of movement, flipping the ship but having to thrust to come to a stop, etc. It would be a very different (and steep) learning curve, but it would make the game about piloting the ship rather than grinding a God-like equipped ship and learning procedures and a million buttons to press... and you could do some amazing moves with the spacecraft.

I know a lot of people will pile on with the opinion it won't work, but what I'm asking is have you actually TRIED it? With a game system like this you could prototype it? At the moment it feels too artificial, the yaw control literally just turns the spaceship left and right at a constant rate, it's like playing Cylon Attack!

I know old Elite was like this too, but that was 36 years ago. Surely we must reach a point sometime when flying about like WWII fighters in space becomes a bit... 1977? Why not try moving it on?

Just my 2P, I don't want to ruffle any feathers, no doubt many people enjoy the game, and you all know far more about this than I do, and I know a LOT of work goes into these games, but it's just my honest reaction as a big fan of the genre.

[phkb]

Welcome aboard, commander!

First, it's worth pointing out that Oolite is seen by many of its players as a toolset for making your own, unique space game experience. Engine sounds can be added to the game (there are a couple out there). Laser sounds can be changed. New ships with different flight characteristics can be added, where the yaw component is toned down. In fact, if you think the yaw element is set too high, you can quite easily turn it down or virtually off completely with some simple text-file editing.

Also its too complicated, why do you have to target things and ask for docking permission?

Well, compared to E:D, it's comparatively basic. E:D has lots more controls, uses lots more keys, than Oolite does. E:D also requires you to request permission to dock. In Oolite, however, you can turn that system off. It's in the options. There are also addons that can automatically target ships for you.

Has any thought been put into putting a proper Neutonian flight model into Oolite? Probably by one or two people over time, but that would move the core Oolite game a lot further away from the original game experience it's inspired by. Oolite holds to the Elite flight model, for better or worse. And for myself, I kind of like the flying around in space like WWII fighters. There's a refreshing simplicity to this model that I find quite enjoyable to play.

If Oolite is not to your liking, and you long for a more sophisticated flight model, then Pioneer might be more to your taste. I've never found it to be my thing, but that's OK. It might provide you with some enjoyment.

If this is your only visit to the forum, then I hope you've found it useful. And I wish you the best of luck finding the space game experience of your dreams.

[Cholmondely]

Hi, another noob here, long time classic Elite player, I've tried ED and didn't much like the game, quite liked Elite The New Kind (in wireframe mode it looked like the perfect 8-bit Elite) but no analogue joystick support, Archie Elite is still my favourite I guess... so thought I'd give OOlite a try.

Anyhow, first impressions... Sorry but it's terrible. The controls feel child like, it doesn't feel right to fly, it feels on rails. It's pretty to look at, but weird having no engine sound after playing ED. And the pathetic pew-pew laser you get when you start out just made me laugh.

Also its too complicated, why do you have to target things and ask for docking permission? What does it add to the game? Just fly into the station like the original. I glanced at all the keyboard controls and grimaced, I just CBA with stuff like that.

Obviously not the game for me, but one thing I wanted to ask, have the developers thought about trying a real-physics control system? By that I mean thrusters and realistic freedom of movement, flipping the ship but having to thrust to come to a stop, etc. It would be a very different (and steep) learning curve, but it would make the game about piloting the ship rather than grinding a God-like equipped ship and learning procedures and a million buttons to press... and you could do some amazing moves with the spacecraft.

I know a lot of people will pile on with the opinion it won't work, but what I'm asking is have you actually TRIED it? With a game system like this you could prototype it? At the moment it feels too artificial, the yaw control literally just turns the spaceship left and right at a constant rate, it's like playing Cylon Attack!

I know old Elite was like this too, but that was 36 years ago. Surely we must reach a point sometime when flying about like WWII fighters in space becomes a bit... 1977? Why not try moving it on?

Just my 2P, I don't want to ruffle any feathers, no doubt many people enjoy the game, and you all know far more about this than I do, and I know a LOT of work goes into these games, but it's just my honest reaction as a big fan of the genre.

Welcome!

The vast world of choice with Oolite is bewildering!

Next time you start the game

1) Select Game Options and then turn Docking Protocol OFF
2) If you so wish, on the same Game Options Screen turn Wireframe Graphics ON
3) Return (BACK) to the first options screen
4) Now select Manage Expansion Packs and Download the Expansion list (if you have not already done so)
5) Then scroll down the list of 650 or so: download Engine Sound (an Ambience OXP/OXZ) from the Expansions Manager - it should be on the 7th screen!
6) Now try playing again!

If you find you don't like Engine Sound so much, I think BGS (another Ambience OXZ, a couple of screens earlier) may also do an Engine Sound. But the others here will know.

And if you are running an AppleMac, the sound sometimes cuts out!

All the best,

Cholmondeley

OXZ's are OXP's modified to fit the Expansions Manager which you are using!



Edited to add:

Reading through Ash73's comments again, some 4 years later, I suspect the real problem here is the 2003 desire to replicate Classic Elite. Hence the flying model. And hence the keyboard controls (which are taken from Classic Elite with a handful of new (minor) ones added in - requesting docking/zooming the scanner etc.).

The early threads discussing changes to the game tend to be dominated by such as Commander McLane desiring to keep things close to the beloved 1984 original, even though they might make little sense rationally. And this mindview seems to have been dominant up to perhaps 2010 or so.

The only break from this was cim's versions which came out at the time that E:D was looming over the horizon (2014-5) - as seen with Redspear's comments on changes in pirate populations. Redspear though tends to be more interested in playability - while Stranger prefers a heavy dose of "realism".