Re: Elite: Dangerous - and the return

[Diziet Sma]

Nice change of thread title, btw, Cody!

[chrisjj]

Only after some protests on the forum - and reluctantly, methinks.

And I just stumbled upon this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0Q4_k-lr_Q&t=6m10s .

You've got to wonder how he thought he could get away with lying like that, on camera.

[Bugbear]

So ED is now effectively subscription based - you just pay a 'seasonal' fee rather than a monthly fee.

Quite smart, really, as there's no definition to the length of a 'season'.

Disclosure: I'm still playing ED and I am actually enjoying myself, learning how to fight with FA off, but I don't expect this game to be around (with it's current cost model) in 10 years time so best to make the most of it while it lasts. By that I mean - the way it's structured, FDEV have to earn their next pay packet by producing a 'season' that people feel is worth the money. In terms of ROI, that's a really hard way to make money. Why do that when you can simply set up a monthly subscription and sit on your arse collecting rent instead?

[Selezen]

So ED is now effectively subscription based - you just pay a 'seasonal' fee rather than a monthly fee.

Unless you buy the lifetime pass. Then it's completely free.

Disclosure: I'm still playing ED and I am actually enjoying myself, learning how to fight with FA off, but I don't expect this game to be around (with it's current cost model) in 10 years time so best to make the most of it while it lasts. By that I mean - the way it's structured, FDEV have to earn their next pay packet by producing a 'season' that people feel is worth the money. In terms of ROI, that's a really hard way to make money. Why do that when you can simply set up a monthly subscription and sit on your arse collecting rent instead?

Good points. It helps to look at ED as a "product". It's a product that FD sell in order to make money to help pay for future development of the product. If that product is to be maintained, then a fee has to be paid to make that happen. As you say, there are two ways to do that: ask for monthly subs or go down the root of paid expansion packs. I like the latter better: £40 a year instead of £15 per month is still a good deal for the player. Not as good for the developer/maintainer, but still the better option. Without slating the whiny, entitled minority on the Frontier Forums too much, Frontier HAVE to make money from the product somehow, so if Elite Dangerous doesn't generate any income, then how will that happen?

10 years down the line ED will be a VERY different game. After the ten year plan is exhausted if there's still enough demand for the game then I would assume that Frontier (if they still exist) will move heaven and earth to attempt to keep updating and supporting the game. If there's a point where the funding dries up and ED isn't going to be supported any more I would imagine that Frontier will either make the game a standalone offline game or make the server configuration tools available to the public to create and maintain an independent server. Who knows? Maybe someone would launch a Kickstarter to fund the hosting and maintenance of an ED server farm for X years!

You've got to wonder how he thought he could get away with lying like that, on camera.

Which bit was the lie exactly? The only thing I heard that was possibly incorrect was "those people who backed us from the start are getting a great deal here" - I sensed from what came after that the intent was to say that those who backed at the "lifetime expansion" level are getting a great deal. Given that the majority of the conversation around that question (and indeed the question itself) was in relation to the lifetime expansion passes.

[Diziet Sma]

Unless you buy the lifetime pass. Then it's completely free.

Aye.. I'm glad I decided to spring for it when I originally bought in to the public beta.

[kanthoney]

Now that's an atmosphere, provided you could call something with a pressure that's 42 times greater than the Mariana trench an "atmosphere":

[Cody]

I'm glad I decided to spring for it when I originally bought in to the public beta.

During the KS, I scrimped and saved my way up to the expansion pass level as it was obviously the value deal.
So far though, the best value has been the explorer Cobra Mk III - if not for that, I doubt I'd be playing at all.

[Bugbear]

...So far though, the best value has been the explorer Cobra Mk III - if not for that, I doubt I'd be playing at all.

True, dat. It's nice that the Cobra's multi-role function was maintained. I do wish, though that it had a more open cockpit like the Eagle. Now the Eagle's cockpit is great for exploration but a shame that it's hardpoints are so limiting.

For what it's worth, my Cobra is currently kitted out for bounty hunting / trading / exploration (although to be honest, all I'm doing is refreshing Universal Cartographic's databases with up-to-date scans of already discovered systems).

[Cody]

It's nice that the Cobra's multi-role function was maintained.

Amen to that!

I do wish, though that it had a more open cockpit...

I have no problem with that - I kinda like it, in fact.

[chrisjj]

Which bit was the lie exactly?

Q: "Can you explain how the season of expansions works exactly and the lifetime expansion pass as well, so if I don't purchase the lifetime pass, will I have to pay for every expansion?"

A: "OK so firstly those people who backed us from the start are getting a great deal here ... they are going to get Horizons already for free, or rather they've already paid for it. We've brought back the lifetime expansion pass, that's on our store now. That will be the equivalent so you will get Horizons and anything that comes after it as well as part of that package."

The only thing I heard that was possibly incorrect was "those people who backed us from the start are getting a great deal here"

Possibly??

The upgrade chart show the deal for most KS backers is: pay for the game again at a price above what you originally paid, and you get a £2.50 discount on the expansions. You end up having paid more than new players, and prevented by the DRM from running your second copy. Plus you got zero reward for being a backer, because the same deal goes to someone who bought yesterday.

Not quite "those people who backed us from the start ... will get Horizons already for free, or rather they've already paid for it."

I sensed from what came after that the intent was to say that those who backed at the "lifetime expansion" level are getting a great deal.

Well, being not a mind-reader, I was going by what was said, rather than on something different intended. And I think most others were too, which is why so many were upset.

Anyway, given how few did actually back at that level, that 'intended' wouldn't have sounded so good, would it?

One might also say there were even fewer amongst those "who backed us from the start", because the expansions reward was added only three weeks before the KS end... at the er, Molyneux moment

[Selezen]

Which bit was the lie exactly?

Q: "Can you explain how the season of expansions works exactly and the lifetime expansion pass as well, so if I don't purchase the lifetime pass, will I have to pay for every expansion?"

So the bit I was talking about then. I'll stand by the "people can make mistakes when live on a screen" point of view. I'm not into microanalysing the literal content of what people say. The intent was clear, even if it's in hindsight. Do people really have to be spoonfed what exists between the lines? Those who know what DB is talking about can infer what he means. I'm not that bright, but even I knew that he made "a mistake" in what he said and could mentally insert "those who backed at certain levels" into the relevant part of his first words. The rest of the interview cleared it up anyway. But of course by then the people who heard what they wanted to hear (or didn't want to hear as the case may be) would have stopped listening and started posting on Reddit.

The upgrade chart show the deal for most KS backers is: pay for the game again at a price above what you originally paid, and you get a £2.50 discount on the expansions. You end up having paid more than new players, and prevented by the DRM from running your second copy. Plus you got zero reward for being a backer, because the same deal goes to someone who bought yesterday.

So how's that different from most MMORPGS (other than the backer-related content)? Timing is everything with these things. When the expansions for EverQuest came out, in the days when there was no public beta testing or rampant internet analysis like there is today, there were the same problems. The difference was that there was comparatively little warning that a release was due. I know several people who bought EQ just before various expansions came out (myself included) and were bitten by the release of a new expansion soon after. Those people had to pay the money for the expansion as well as the original game, and most even had to still buy the original game for the expansion to work. Dawn Of War is another example of a game that has an expansion pack that requires the original game to play. Euro Truck Sim 2 has a core game that needs to be bought and DLCs that have to be bought separately and are not rolled into the core game when they are released.

I think Frontier have done a lot to minimise the impact that the "new season" expansion will have on existing players. The "Lifetime expansion" is a good investment if you expect to be a long term player of ED. Offering Horizons as a rolled-together release with the full game is a more user-friendly release strategy than some other expansion releases. In addition, again taking a more lenient route than Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies and Dark Age Of Camelot, ED does NOT require a monthly subscription to play. Frontier have offered several very good incentives to bring players in and still there are people who would prefer that the expansions were free or very cheap and thus cut off the only real funding option that the future of the game can rely on.

My summary of the situation is this. The worst case scenario is that those who have bought ED at the standard price (base game, standard beta and Mercenary pack) will have to do the same as the majority of MMORPG players have had to do for the last couple of decades: buy a game plus its expansion. Even then they are doing well because they aren't having to pay a $15 or £10 monthly fee. Everyone else has it sweet. Importantly, however, no-one is WORSE off than they would have been with Everquest or Dawn Of War. At least that's what that chart tells me.

I have a lifetime pass so it doesn't affect me. My son does not, and he will have to buy Horizons at full price (unless his awesome parents buy it at the discounted price and give it to him for Xmas or whatever). Again, this is what I consider STANDARD PRACTICE for game addons, so I have no issue with shelling out another £30/£40 for Horizons for him. It was what I expected to have to do. Game companies need to make money, and they make money by selling games. Why is that so wrong?

[Selezen]

AND ANOTHER THING!



Everquest, Star Trek Online and other MMORPGs have three tier systems. Free to play minimal content access, one-time fee intermediate content access and monthly subscription full content access. Should ED go down that route?

In some ways, the "seasonal updates" method is the middle tier - a one-off payment for additional content. Works for those games, so why not ED?

<climbs down off soapbox>

[Cody]

The Close Quarters Combat arena scenario <spits> has hit Beta! Ritual self-disembowelment may seem preferable!

I have no interest in it, have not entered it, and have no intention of ever doing so - but I now get this added to my stats display in the normal game! Hopefully, FD will see fit to make that particular 'rank' display optional, or hide it somewhere else - but I have my doubts! <howls mournfully> I hate the progress bars too - so tacky!

[Selezen]

I tried CQC on Tuesday. I'm not overly fussed about it, to be honest, and it's not really my sort of gaming "bag" but as a responsible Beta Tester and blogger/streamer it behooves me to at least give it a go. Video of the stream is, as usual, available on my youtube thing.

I quite enjoyed it, actually, apart from the deathly lack of other players. I got my ass handed to me on a one-to-one basis when another player joined, but as far as the look of the thing and the gameplay, it looks like a rather engaging new mode of play. Nice for a bit of excitement if you've been off exploring or mining and fancy something a bit different.

One thing it will be useful for is for streamers who are out in the galaxy and want to give the viewers something a bit more interesting to watch.

The other areas of the Beta were more interesting to me. The new ships are rather nice. The Imperial Eagle looks like an Eagle lay down with an Imperial Courier and then some Hot Rod Modder came along and gave it a spoiler, but I think it looks nice and it handles a little better than the original Eagle. The Federal Gunship I took out for some trading (not recommended - stick with the much cheaper Type6) and some pew pew (much better, and handles well in a fight). Didn't do much with the Fed Assault Ship.

More lovely content. I'll take a look at more new content before the end of the week hopefully.

[drew]

I was bored with CQC after two games, but my youngest son Josh (11) is very much into it. The only way to drag him off was to suggest a few rounds of World of Warships.

Cheers,

Drew.