Expansion Packs and the new Player.

[Smivs]

For as long as I can remember the community has been debating which if any Expansion Packs (OXPs/OXZs) could be recommended for new players. These discussions, scattered around the Board, have ranged from advice (both good and bad), to suggestions and recommendations, some of which were wholly inappropriate. The result is a sea of confusion, and a large amount of what I personally consider to be bad advice. This situation has become even more pertinent with the introduction of the Expansions Manager and the development of compilation metapackages.
One thing that has been absent up till now is a genuinely useful dedicated thread on this matter, so this post is an attempt to address this. Below is a synopsis of the advice many experienced players have given newcomers over the years. I have tried to be concise, and the advice is very general being based on what I and many other long-term community members consider to be the best approach. I hope it will be the basis of a useful addition to this Board. My original post has been replaced by the text below to incorporate the improvements suggested by other members (see discussion below).


"One of the great things about Oolite is that the game is expandable. Using freely available text editors, modeling software and graphics software anybody can make an AddOn for the game, either for their own use or to be released as an OXP/OXZ for the whole community.
There are hundreds of expansion packs available, and new players often ask which AddOns are recommended. Most people have their own favourites, and many will be keen to recommend these, but the new player should be very wary, as many OXZs will change the basic game, sometimes profoundly, but also sometimes in subtle ways which may not be obvious. The purpose of this post is to give new players some general advice about the expansion packs and how best to approach them.
The first point to make is that Oolite is a mature, complete game and does not need any expansion packs to be enjoyed. Many experienced players recommend that new players experience the unmodified game for themselves before considering adding any expansion packs. However, after a while choosing the right OXZs can enhance the game and make the experience more enjoyable.
The general advice for new players therefore is to avoid OXZs altogether to begin with. Get used to the game as it comes so you learn how it works and how the elements interact with each other. Oolite is an easy game to learn, but some aspects do require skills to be developed, and this can only be achieved by playing the basic game, being patient and building skills as you progress. Oolite is an open-ended game and can give years of fun and pleasure, but this does mean that some aspects can be tricky for newcomers. The payoff is that once you have mastered the game, it will be one of the most rewarding things you will ever do.
Whilst this may be the safest strategy to installing expansion packs it is by no means the only one. Oxps/zs can add a lot to the game and we hope they provide you with many hours of entertainment. However, the following points are worth noting.
A lot of expansion packs make some aspects of the game easier. Great if all you want is instant gratification, but ultimately they could compromise both the game and the players' abilities to the point that the game loses much of its appeal.
Others can make aspects of the game significantly harder: Oolite is already a challenging game for beginners, and such OXZs may not only make the game more difficult to learn, but could put off new players by simply making it far too hard for them. Nearly all expansion packs have a significant effect on game mechanics, and should only be used where the effect is understood and is considered desirable by the user.
So the recommendation is that new players avoid expansion packs for the first few days or weeks. Once you have developed a good understanding of the game mechanics, and your flight skills are coming together, then adding some eye-candy to improve the look of the game might be an option. This might include nicer (or extra) planets, or a ship re-texture set, although be wary that some of these also change the statistics of some of the ships which can impact on gameplay.
Once you feel that you have a very good understanding of the basic game, and you are happy with the way your Ooniverse looks, you might consider adding some other Expansions. You will find that you are spoilt for choice at this stage, but don't get carried away. OXZs normally have a Wiki page with full details and information, and this should always be read carefully before installing an expansion pack so that you know exactly what you are getting. Also reading the AddOn's thread on the forum will help you to understand it and what others think of it.
Add expansions one at a time and play with them for a while before adding more. Get to know them and see how they affect gameplay, and in particular look out for unexpected effects and interactions with other OXZs. With so many available, compatibility cannot be guaranteed, but by adding them in singly any problems can be diagnosed early, and the culprit should be easy to identify.
A new player using this approach should over time be able to tailor the game to their liking without breaking the inherant balance and versatility of the core game, and should avoid nasty surprises. This approach will allow you to take what is in its basic form already an excellent game, and improve it further to suit your taste."

[Cody]

It's the 'recommended' lists that I object to! We had the same problem a while back with the Wiki and a totally unsuitable recommended list. The manager, whilst being very useful and easy to use, is kinda out of control - it's too easy for a new player to install hundreds of OXPs without any thought or research.

As I've said before though - those who want to push recommended lists will carry on pushing them!

[Disembodied]

However a lot of the AddOns are, for want of a better term, 'Cheats' which make some aspects of the game easier. Great if all you want is instant gratification, but ultimately they could compromise both the game and the players' abilities to the point that the game loses much of its appeal. There are many others which have a significant affect on game mechanics, and these should only be used where the effect is understood and is considered desirable by the user.

I'd suggest maybe altering this to read

A lot of AddOns make some aspects of the game easier. Great if all you want is instant gratification, but ultimately they could compromise both the game and the players' abilities to the point that the game loses much of its appeal. Others can make aspects of the game significantly harder: Oolite is already a challenging game for beginners, and such AddOns may make the game horribly difficult to learn. Nearly all AddOns have a significant effect on game mechanics, and should only be used where the effect is understood and is considered desirable by the user.

It might even be worth strengthening the first point to read

The first point to make is that Oolite is a mature, complete game and does not need any AddOns to be enjoyed. We recommend that new players experience the unmodified game for themselves before considering adding any expansion packs.

[Smivs]

It's the 'recommended' lists that I object to! <snip> As I've said before though - those who want to push recommended lists will carry on pushing them!

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I feel that a prominent Sticky thread like i am suggesting here should act as a 'Health Warning' against these as much as giving general advice.

However a lot of the AddOns are, for want of a better term, 'Cheats' which make some aspects of the game easier. Great if all you want is instant gratification, but ultimately they could compromise both the game and the players' abilities to the point that the game loses much of its appeal. There are many others which have a significant affect on game mechanics, and these should only be used where the effect is understood and is considered desirable by the user.

I'd suggest maybe altering this to read

A lot of AddOns make some aspects of the game easier. Great if all you want is instant gratification, but ultimately they could compromise both the game and the players' abilities to the point that the game loses much of its appeal. Others can make aspects of the game significantly harder: Oolite is already a challenging game for beginners, and such AddOns may make the game horribly difficult to learn. Nearly all AddOns have a significant effect on game mechanics, and should only be used where the effect is understood and is considered desirable by the user.

Yes, I use the term Cheat lightly, hence the quote marks, and if it can be replaced with something less disparaging, then yes. I'm not so sure about 'harder' OXPs making the game 'horribly difficult to learn'. I think they are more likely to discourage new players rather than inhibit their learning, so maybe something like

Others can make aspects of the game significantly harder: Oolite is already a challenging game for beginners, and such AddOns may not only make the game more difficult to learn, but could put off new players by simply making it far too hard for them.

It might even be worth strengthening the first point to read

The first point to make is that Oolite is a mature, complete game and does not need any AddOns to be enjoyed. We recommend that new players experience the unmodified game for themselves before considering adding any expansion packs.

Yes, that would be a good edit.

[Smivs]

There appear to be no more contributions to this thread, so I have updated my original post and edited the Advice to incorporate the suggestions made in this thread so far. I have also slightly changed the title.
Could it now be Stickied?

[Duggan]

flavors/ambience/eye candy (ostensibly retextures) add ons are in my view the only ones to be recommended to the game...They add to nothing more than the immersion in my own experience. Just my 2 cents The individual player can then go on to ,if they choose, to make the game easier or harder as is their individual wont...

[Lone_Wolf]

The main question then is what type a specific oxp is .

I feel Random Hits, feudal States, escort contracts and ups courier enhance the ambience and the immersion in MY Ooniverse..

However, atleast RH (safer anarchy systems) and feudal states (less pirates in many feudal systems) also change the game itself.

Smivs, i feel your post describes things correctly.
+1 for stickying this thread.

[Redspear]

A distinction that I've not seen mentioned before (with regards to this issue) exists between oxps that affect every system and oxps that affect only some systems.

If the concern is that the beginner should understand the basic game before tinkering, then anything that affects everywhere (i.e. every system) is potentially indistinguishable from or masking a part of the core game.

Commies is an example of an oxp/z affecting only some systems and explicitly so. The user still experiences the standard game everywhere that isn't communist. Whilst it's true that Communist systems have a specific danger level, I doubt this is striking when compared to dictatorships or confederacies. Point being that the player experiences life with and (to a large extent) life without the oxp, all within the same game. This is not true of most 'eye candy' oxps, even simple retextures.

Recommendations are just that. In the end people download what they want, when they want, for the game they want (or at least the one they think they want). Perhaps we can trust them to understand the nature of a mod and to employ it as they wish.

In terms of an 'official' guide of any kind, I'd suggest a brief (if we want to encourage it to be read) caution, perhaps on the oxp download page of the oolite site and/or the first time the player accesses the download manager. If 'official' is too strong, then aren't we just adding another questionable recommendation list, albeit a strategic one?

Maybe just a few key points need to be made (most of which I think Smivs covered).
- The game works fine without oxps and we recommend you try that first.
- Many oxps can dramatically affect your game and so we suggest installing and experiencing them one at a time.
- oxps are 'fan made' and more likely to be buggy than the core game itself.
- Most have a wiki page and/or bb thread that you might like to investigate prior to installing.

Perhaps a link to the wiki's oxp page, which itself links to recommendations from various bb members. I'm sure they were made with good intentions and to outright dismiss them seems counter to the principle of a forum to me.

Good advice depends on circumstance I think, and that I'd expect to be highly variable.

[Wildeblood]

A distinction that I've not seen mentioned before (with regards to this issue) exists between oxps that affect every system and oxps that affect only some systems.

If the concern is that the beginner should understand the basic game before tinkering, then anything that affects everywhere (i.e. every system) is potentially indistinguishable from or masking a part of the core game.

I concur.

Unrelated to the above:-

What is needed, rather than a tantalus of OXPs and schoolmarmish admonitions to look but not touch, is a proper taxonomy of OXPs that gives players the ability to decide first what they want to change then look up which OXx they need to download to achieve that desired change. A flowchart-y or HTML lists within lists type web page that lets OXP authors precisely position their creations relative to similar, competing or complimentary OXPs.

What?

"I want some equipment that will make my ship go faster."

-> Equipment
--> for easier navigation
--> for enhancing IFF scanner
--> for increasing speed

Click.

-> Equipment
--> for increasing speed
---> of torus drive
---> of fuel injectors

Click.

-> Equipment
--> for increasing speed
---> of fuel injectors
----- try "Military Fuel Injectors" OXP
----- try "Q-Charger" OXP

[cim]

it's too easy for a new player to install hundreds of OXPs without any thought or research.

That's about what I did as a new player back in 1.75.3 - installed about 100-150 packs based on little more than having skim-read the Wiki page.

The only thing that really caused a problem was that I installed both "Lave" and "Lave Academy", and died a few times trying to sneak past the pirate Krait which "Lave" adds just near where "Lave Academy" adds its navigation buoy. After that I just drew it on to the police near the main station and got on with the rest of the game... (dying repeatedly trying to pick up the bonus rings on the Academy's navigation test, as I recall)

A few of the extra stations I added certainly made the game easier both in terms of mid-lane fuel provision and nicer selling prices; on the other hand I took a lot of extra equipment damage from all the tough NPC ships about, and I'm pretty sure, with a much more detailed knowledge of the game mechanics and far better flying skills to avoid combat damage, that I could now make money even faster in Strict Mode if I wanted to.

I would prefer not to give any particular OXP recommendation the appearance of officialness, whether that be "install anything which looks shiny; what's the worst that can happen", "install them one at a time, having first disassembled them and understood the implications of the source", or "you want this set". Oolite is, I think, a solid enough baseline that you'll probably have a good time playing it with both small and large combinations of OXPs.

a proper taxonomy of OXPs that gives players the ability to decide first what they want to change then look up which OXx they need to download to achieve that desired change.

I think this is a good idea, though a lot of work to set up. Considered use of keywords in the description and tags fields of OXP manifests might make it easier for someone wanting to try this to at least partly automate the construction.

[spara]

I think the main problem is putting metapackages themed by user level into the manager and promoting them in the Ambiances section. The combinations selected are always very subjective and quite personal. When it's in the manager, it's a bit more "official" than a list of favorite OXPs in a thread or wiki.

Cim's suggestion from another thread that these kinds of metapackages should be in Systems section is a good one and Wildeblood's idea of taxonomy is a great one although it requires quite a bit of work.

I'm not really sure if this thread should be stickied. The whole idea of giving some general advice to all seeking advice on OXPs feels mission impossible. Who are we to say that one must try out the basic game first? If someone wants to install them all, so be it. When the thread is stickied it's once more "official". And is it needed anyway? People have not really been queueing for advice lately.

[Smivs]

I'm not really sure if this thread should be stickied. <snip> When the thread is stickied it's once more "official". And is it needed anyway? People have not really been queueing for advice lately.

Almost every other month we get a request from a new player for recommendations - the problem is the thread moves down onto page two and is forgotten, then the whole thing starts all over again, ad infinitum. By having a Sticky thread the advice will always be prominent.

The whole idea of giving some general advice to all seeking advice on OXPs feels mission impossible.

The whole point of this is that it is NOT giving advice on OXPs. It is advising against using them too soon with a view to avoiding problems.

Who are we to say that one must try out the basic game first? If someone wants to install them all, so be it.

'We' are a large group of experienced players who genuinely believe that learning the basic game before tinkering with it is the best way to ensure that everybody gets the best out of the game, and can then make informed choices about what changes to make to it. We are also the people who repeatedly have to step in to sort out problems, queries and disasters that novices experience by not following this advice!
Many people appreciate the benefits of 'Expert Advice', so I feel this should be prominent. It can then be taken or ignored as the user chooses, but if the good advice is not freely and obviously available it could be missed or overlooked even by those who really want or need it.

[spara]

You're right of course and I was a bit harsh, sorry. As long as it's clearly advice, no problem on my side. I'm more worried about metapackages that inject recommendations lists into the game via the manager.

[Smivs]

No worries.
I think this is important, so it is important that we get it right and having a discussion about it and achieving a consensus is the right way to go. It is because of the dangers posed by the metapackage issue along with the 'recommendation' threads and wiki pages that I feel a prominent warning and advice thread is needed.

[Wildeblood]

I think the main problem is putting metapackages themed by user level into the manager and promoting them in the Ambiances section.

I don't care how many compilations/metapackages* people add to the OXZ manager, as long as they're sorted to the end of the list, not the front. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm ignorant about arithmetic:) There are 2^300 possible combinations of OXZs, so combino-packs* can't be allowed at the front of the list.

* Yes, I dislike "metapackage" as a word.