Proposal for 1.82: combat balance changes

[Fatleaf]

After a sabbatical I noticed a huge change between 1.76 and 1.80. As it is now some missions would be nigh on impossible like some Assassins Guild missions. I was running Coyote's Run earlier and that at times it was murderous. But I must say though, I enjoyed it immensely and prefer it this way. An option to set the difficulty would be amazing, but that would probably take a lot to implement.

[pagroove]

Welcome @Flauterfiddle.

In my opinion you have a fair point there. It is also in my observation that especially the Multi Governments are dangerous. In fact I find Feudals and Anarchies to be safer. Although they shouldn't. It is indeed a problem that you encounter these large groups and sometimes directly at the witch point.

I don't know why the Multi Governments are still that dangerous. But it is a thought that keeps popping up when I cross such a system.

[pagroove]

By the way. I had a Random Hit in a multi Government. The hit was very hard to find. I killed at least 15 pirates before finding it. I also switched ships to a Cat. Feels nice to fly .42 LM for a change.

[Flauterfiddle]

Hi folks,

Thanks for the welcomes, it's a blast with Oolite, don't get me wrong. I'm still exploring everything and there's so much to like.

On that subject, I thought it would be fun to sell the original Cobra III at Lave and buy an Adder for souping-up (at Lave and Leesti). I then tried out a multi-gov in the same system (forget the name) with all the bells and whistles added ... albeit still an Adder, of course :=).

The result was much the same in terms of numbers: first encounter 7 pirates, next encounter 3 and then 5 together, making 8 in all. I did fare better, though: with injectors I was able to put some distance between myself and the gangs -- although not *always*, clearly they also use injectors -- so as to thin the pack and then start picking them off. Being an Adder, however, even extra shields and a military laser (an Adder can't really handle the energy needs, probably a beam would have been better), etc. didn't help much against 4-5 beam lasers, and the result was the same after a few hectic minutes and a lot of running away: press space commander.

One thing I also noticed again on these tests -- the long-range accuracy of the pirates was very, very impressive. I was occasionally being hit comfortably by off-scanner pirates, which I assume must be possible but is something new to me (eight tailing you and yet you're being hit by multiple laser fire from the front...).

Well, welcome to Oolite, I guess :=). I'm currently on a Cobra Mk. I commander, since I consider the weaker ship but 7,000 GCr in the bank to offer a much better starting ship for newbies. You get injectors and so forth and are not fiddling with 1-2 ton computer runs for the first hour or so.

And I'm still wondering whether there's a career for a souped-up Adder ... perhaps making rock hermit to station runs, carrying kilos of gems and precious metals?

A general guide to ships in the game, and possible upgrades/careers with these ships would be useful, since I have had to piece together this information so far from the wiki. I'd still prefer a starting game where you are simply given, say, 100,000 to spend as you like and can choose from a handful of ships with varying career paths and strengths/weaknesses. But that's the point with expansions, and I have had a look at Starting Options for that reason.

[another_commander]

A general guide to ships in the game, and possible upgrades/careers with these ships would be useful, since I have had to piece together this information so far from the wiki.

I trust you have already had a look at the Oolite Reference Sheet PDF provided with the game? It contains, amongst other things, all the information about ships in service and a description of the careers available, so you can combine the data and be able to make an informed decision on which ship fits which career the best.

[Venator Dha]

One thing I also noticed again on these tests -- the long-range accuracy of the pirates was very, very impressive. I was occasionally being hit comfortably by off-scanner pirates, which I assume must be possible but is something new to me (eight tailing you and yet you're being hit by multiple laser fire from the front...).

Yes their accuracy is a bit too good, have a look at https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f= ... 08#p225616 for a link to a modifying OXP that can help until all the changes that are being worked on now find their way to the stable build. Also unless you have some OXP added that gives them military lasers the core standard ships will only have a range of 12.5km (pulse) or 15km (beam) unless you have been naughty and are fighting Vipers so you should not be being hit from outside your scanner range - have you zoomed it in? By the way a military laser has a 30km range so can hit from outside scanner range.

But that's the point with expansions, and I have had a look at Starting Options for that reason.

The Adder start with  Start Choices is a good way to explore a hard starting option as it can be expanded to 5TC with allows a passenger berth to be added giving an other career in transporting passengers. I've had some good times stating from an Adder, the harder Adder start (no money or fuel) is quite a challenge An Adder with mil laser can be quite a fighting machine, the worst problem is using an ECM really drains your only energy bank, I prefer using injectors to outrun a missile, leaving the ECM for real emergencies.

Personally I think that the Cobra MkI start should be the default start ship, but understand why the Mk III is.

[cim]

So, nightly build testers... this has been in a fairly stable state for a month and a half now, and I'm looking to make a couple of final minor changes before "signing it off" for the release cycle. Before I do those, I'd like your impressions on the current nightly combat balance with the benefit of the extra play time.

A couple of anecdotes from me:
- my "fresh" pilot had got as far as getting a decent parcel rep and got jumped by two assassin packs at the witchpoint. Without shield boosters or any mission equipment, and barely using the aft laser, I killed six and the seventh ran away.
- while testing the planetinfo changes, I made a jump with a new Jameson from Lave to Leesti, and a pack of eight pirates were waiting at the witchpoint. Since it was just a test run, I hadn't brought any cargo with me, so I dived in to fight. I didn't win, of course, but I did manage to kill a Cobra I, seriously damage two Geckos, and survive long enough for one of the system's Viper Interceptor patrols to finally show up. The Vipers cleaned up easily, and I was able to take out a further pirate Sidewinder before continuing with my original test plan.


The remaining changes I want to make are:
- make ships with injectors use them to close to dogfighting range more if they don't have a long-range weapon anyway (and make some minor adjustments to the rules for NPC injectors so that they behave the same as the player's - at the moment they get considerably worse acceleration from them)
- add some ability for NPCs to have a primary target slightly outside of their scanner range (which they can't use missiles on). This is to close the loophole where a military laser can shoot an NPC to death without it being able to react sensibly, but if it works there may be other OXP bonus features too.

[Disembodied]

while testing the planetinfo changes, I made a jump with a new Jameson from Lave to Leesti, and a pack of eight pirates were waiting at the witchpoint.

Just a query on how common an occurrence this would be? OK, Leesti has some ropey neighbours, but it's still a Corporate State. It's good to hear that you (as an experienced Ooliteer) could survive until a Viper patrol turned up, but still: without your level of survival skills, this is the sort of experience which could prompt a brand-new player to just give up. If it's just really, really bad luck, though, then OK (I once got mugged in Witchspace, first jump out) ...

Mind you, the fact that a Viper patrol turned up and cleared them all out does suggest that banding together at the Witchpoint isn't a great tactic for pirates. If they wanted to mount an occasional big-wing raid on a Corporate State or similar, then perhaps they would do better parking somewhere off-lane, away from the Viper patrol route, and then slice down across the lane when they see a (big, fat) target.

[cim]

Just a query on how common an occurrence this would be?

It should be relatively rare (it's certainly no more common in 1.81 than in 1.80) but it may need some further adjustment.

[Venator Dha]

So, nightly build testers... this has been in a fairly stable state for a month and a half now, and I'm looking to make a couple of final minor changes before "signing it off" for the release cycle. Before I do those, I'd like your impressions on the current nightly combat balance with the benefit of the extra play time.

After flying several starts up to above average/competent level including Python & Cobra MkI starts I am very happy with the balance (I really enjoyed the Cobra MkI starts and really think this should be the default start - but that's a different topic). The start is still difficult, and bad luck (like multiple pirates in a safe system) can still mean a quick 'press space commander', but most encounters are survivable, and many are good fun as survival is not guaranteed. Many early encounters lead to damage to systems and/or loss of cargoes (note as I'm testing the combat I don't drop goods for them) but limping into the station for repairs feels good, and there is learning in the combats. Once established with a well equipped but not fully tricked out ship the combat still remains challenging and fun; as expected once I have a Cobra MkIII with all the goodies I don't feel like there's much to worry about short of multiple packs of hostiles (which I'll try to run from, but given at that stage many also have injectors is not always successful ).
Overall: I as a medium skilled pilot think the combat balance is now in a very good place.

I would not like to see any change to the game's start balance, but wonder if some more information as to what a safe/unsafe system is, what good tactics (run away) are for a new player when the game is launched. We have seen a couple of new starters coming to the forum (and have been given good advice as is the standard ) expressing surprise/concern as to the difficulty they have encountered at the start - some of this from 1.80 combat being too unforgiving but also them not understanding the danger of Lave, or expecting to be able to fight hordes of pirates from the start. How many have just not bothered again and been lost?

Anecdotally for difficult safe systems I found that Ensoreus nearly always seams to be crawling with Pirates (due to it's neighbours) though with a lot of vipers around as well it can be an interesting system to visit - it's also far enough away from the start for it to not be a problem for a untested new Jameson. The chance of some Vipers appearing seems good if you can survive for long enough. Conversely to this Ararus next door has always seemed relatively safe (perhaps everyone's at Ensures ); in fact I tend to feel Feudal systems are harder than Anarchies.

The remaining changes I want to make are:
- make ships with injectors use them to close to dogfighting range more if they don't have a long-range weapon anyway (and make some minor adjustments to the rules for NPC injectors so that they behave the same as the player's - at the moment they get considerably worse acceleration from them)

Look forward to this.

- add some ability for NPCs to have a primary target slightly outside of their scanner range (which they can't use missiles on). This is to close the loophole where a military laser can shoot an NPC to death without it being able to react sensibly, but if it works there may be other OXP bonus features too.

Does this mean that a ship could actively avoid me before mass lock, if I'm on Torus drive?

[cim]

I would not like to see any change to the game's start balance, but wonder if some more information as to what a safe/unsafe system is, what good tactics (run away) are for a new player when the game is launched.

It's covered both in the in-game tutorial (briefly) and in the PDF documentation (more extensively) already. Suggestions for making it more obvious in-game would be welcome, though.

- add some ability for NPCs to have a primary target slightly outside of their scanner range (which they can't use missiles on). This is to close the loophole where a military laser can shoot an NPC to death without it being able to react sensibly, but if it works there may be other OXP bonus features too.

Does this mean that a ship could actively avoid me before mass lock, if I'm on Torus drive?

With the speeds involved it's doubtful that it could actually move out of the way in time. Even with injectors, and assuming you weren't steering to intercept, it would probably need to pick your approach up at ~200km distance, which is considerably more than I was thinking of.

I'm also intending it to apply only to ships which the NPC is "concentrating" on - so already has as a primary target or has just been shot by - to simulate the way the player doesn't completely forget about the ship they're chasing/fleeing the instant it leaves scanner range.

[Disembodied]

I would not like to see any change to the game's start balance, but wonder if some more information as to what a safe/unsafe system is, what good tactics (run away) are for a new player when the game is launched.

It's covered both in the in-game tutorial (briefly) and in the PDF documentation (more extensively) already. Suggestions for making it more obvious in-game would be welcome, though.

Is it possible to include a "piracy alert status" for each planet on the F6 short-range chart? Even something like colour-coding the system names? Green for "safe", orange for "be aware", red for "dangerous", pulsing red for "rather you than me, pal ..."

[Venator Dha]

I would not like to see any change to the game's start balance, but wonder if some more information as to what a safe/unsafe system is, what good tactics (run away) are for a new player when the game is launched.

It's covered both in the in-game tutorial (briefly) and in the PDF documentation (more extensively) already. Suggestions for making it more obvious in-game would be welcome, though.

I, like probably many just jumped in to the game and learnt on the job
I like Disembodied's idea

Is it possible to include a "piracy alert status" for each planet on the F6 short-range chart? Even something like colour-coding the system names? Green for "safe", orange for "be aware", red for "dangerous", pulsing red for "rather you than me, pal ..."

- add some ability for NPCs to have a primary target slightly outside of their scanner range (which they can't use missiles on). This is to close the loophole where a military laser can shoot an NPC to death without it being able to react sensibly, but if it works there may be other OXP bonus features too.

Does this mean that a ship could actively avoid me before mass lock, if I'm on Torus drive?

With the speeds involved it's doubtful that it could actually move out of the way in time. Even with injectors, and assuming you weren't steering to intercept, it would probably need to pick your approach up at ~200km distance, which is considerably more than I was thinking of.

I'm also intending it to apply only to ships which the NPC is "concentrating" on - so already has as a primary target or has just been shot by - to simulate the way the player doesn't completely forget about the ship they're chasing/fleeing the instant it leaves scanner range.

I thought it would be so, but no harm in asking

[ralph_hh]

After playing for awhile now, I'd like to add ageneral comment, regarding the current version (1.80 I suppose).

I found the fighting far too demanding in the beginning. Until I had a military laser, I hardly won any fight at all. If I was close to success, the enemy simply flew away whilst my laser tried to cool down. Now that I have fuel injectors and military lasers, It's ok and does not need much balance if some at all.

What keeps me annoyed is the fact that the errativ movement of enemy ships combined with my poor targeting skills means that still a lot of ships manage to escape after some hits befor they explode. Coward Chicken!! (Ok, one may also call this sensible...)


Maybe as a balance for beginners one could ascertain that the NPC ships are equipped with pulse laser only, as long as the player has less than 20 kills..?

[another_commander]

Maybe as a balance for beginners one could ascertain that the NPC ships are equipped with pulse laser only, as long as the player has less than 20 kills..?

Errr... no, that would be obviously a very easy way to do it but it defeats entirely the purpose of the game being non-player centric. Oolite does not, and should not, care about the specifics of the player. The player is just another entitiy in the universe going about its business and there is no special attention reserved for him/her.

What is needed is fine tuning of the existing balance and I believe cim has hit the target spot on this time.