Proposal for 1.82: combat balance changes

[Cody]

You have this level of willpower, and can't give up on the snout?

<lights another smoke - grins> It is an interesting idea though (and while we're at it, nerf side lasers too).

[tinker]

As one of the daily players who has not yet got to competent after 8 years of playing I might be a suitable tester. Mainly my score is low as I usually do all I can to avoid fighting, I am crap at it and have no interest in getting better but I do have an interest in getting the balance better as at the moment Oolite is unplayable for me. I even made a new Jameson to see what that was like and have not got further than three jumps without being a smear on someone's windshield.

Time is normally no problem, so testing 10 hours a day can work but I am not sure about installing nightly builds on Arch Linux, even the standard Linux binary does not work.

[Lone_Wolf]

Time is normally no problem, so testing 10 hours a day can work but I am not sure about installing nightly builds on Arch Linux, even the standard Linux binary does not work.

Tinker, a possible solution for that would be an oolite-git PKGBUILD that builds from a specific git commit.
You'd have to manually change the commit hash and build it yourself though to be sure it's the same as a nightly build.

[cim]

I am not sure about installing nightly builds on Arch Linux, even the standard Linux binary does not work.

In that case you'd probably need to compile it yourself (or install a different distro in a VM, I suppose).

Maybe fog up the rear view with "engine glare", if the player's ship is moving faster than a crawl?

The Scanner Targeting Enhancement makes it fairly plausible to fight on instruments alone.

Even in a close fight aft is often a better weapon than the fore laser just because the relative speed is reduced so you have longer to line up your shot. Though, of course, it also makes you an easier target for them in that case.

It might be more a strategic issue: ships with injectors should use them to rapidly close the gap - perhaps even aiming to overshoot slightly to surround the sniper; ships without should probably dodge and move away rather than hoping to close the range.

[Zireael]

I think it's sensible to stick to the first set of possible solutions first, and not get carried away ... attempting to balance combat by adding new weapons, which will themselves need to be balanced, is probably not the way to go for the core game

I agree that new weapons shouldn't be the first of the changes to go in - let's stick to the other, easier, solutions first

[Ranthe]

For me, the player's killer tactic is the rear-mounted military laser. [snip] It is perhaps this one über-tactic that, if squashed, might reduce the gulf between the number of ships a beginner can deal with, and the number of ships a veteran can deal with.

This is why I haven't used my aft military laser for years - it becomes a turkey shoot!

Eh? Using the aft laser for me is anything but a "turkey shoot", what with control reversal and all... while I've managed the odd reverse-angle kill Annie's aft laser is more often used to "discourage" tail-chasers while fleeing combat. It's hardly an automatic "über-tactic" on every ship.

[Switeck]

On some ships, firing through their central exhaust makes even seeing the target/s difficult and hitting them even harder.
Coming to a dead stop to spot and shoot almost completely defeats any possible advantages of the aft laser over the front laser.

[streb2001]

This game is amazing! I spent some time playing classic Elite on the BBC back in my student days in the 80s. Stumbled on Oolite a couple of weeks ago and am almost addicted... I managed to tool up my Cobra doing the Isinor - Ensoreus run.

My point is this: I have the Balance Test oxp installed and I am finding combat difficult but not impossible. What spoils it for me slightly is the beam laser. In my opinion it overheats too quickly so that I end up firing it as a pulse laser or it restricts itself to being a pulse laser. Either way I may as well have kept the original pulse laser! I agree with it needing to overheat but its recovery time takes the fun out of using it to pulverise pirates.

My suggestion is to either reduce the recovery time/increase the overheating time or make available (at great expense of course) a turbo laser cooler at some high tech worlds.

Just my tuppenceworth. Keep up the great work!

[Falcon777]

Welcome Streb!

[Diziet Sma]

G'day Streb, and welcome aboard!

[Smivs]

Hi streb, and welcome.
The laser heat-up is even more pronounced with the top-spec Military laser However, this is intended. Part of the skill and fun of the game is learnimng how to 'ration' use of the lasers to avoid or at least limit overheating. It sounds like you are using the right technique - short sharp bursts. And make each shot count.

[cim]

The laser heat-up is even more pronounced with the top-spec Military laser

You'd think it would be, but it's not. Both beam and military lasers will overheat in the same length of sustained fire, at the moment.

[Venator Dha]

An off the wall idea - after seeing the ECM effect on 1.81:
How about the ECM affecting the targeting abilities of the NPCs for a short time, making them more likely to miss. Could also affect the Scanner Targeting Enhancement on the players ship. Possibly introduce ECM shielding as a equipment upgrade.
So an established pilot and high level NPC ships would be less affected but it could help a beginning Jameson out when taking heavy damage. The energy drain should help stop constant use.

[Scouseair]

I agree with trying the standard solutions before going for anything more radical. As for the backup...

Dissipation....No. Certainly not for the player.

New/modified weapons....Variable, but certainly not mines. Imagine becoming fugitive because your mine killed a friendly in a furball. Also, I think it would rapidly become the biggest frustration in the game being killed by a mine trying to put the last couple of shots into the rear of a bad guy.

Respec ship weapons....Against.

More interceptors....No because it's hard enough trying to find opportunities to torus in the safe systems as it is without everywhere having a "Strong police presence". I do like the idea of them having larger detection ranges though.

Starting position....Great as long as it's an option.

System safety....No. Too far from the basic principles of Elite. I've always taken government types to mean the entire system anyway, not just the planet.

Starting conditions....Yes, as long as it's an option.

Budget based population....Unsure.

Fame/Infamy....Yes. As long, as has been suggested, it takes time for them to know you are in the area. Otherwise how could they track and get ahead of you?

I disagree that the core game should cater for all skill levels equally. It should be left to OXZ/OXPs to make the game harder for those who want it. Not for difficulty to be forced on all. Currently 1.80 tries to cater for both by making the safe systems for the "low skill" and the dangerous systems for the "high skill". This just has the effect of making the safe systems boring and the dangerous systems impassable to any but the elite...unless you run away, dump cargo and run away or run away while using your rear laser until there are only a couple left. I think it's depressing that 1.80 forces you into just one combat tactic against groups. Where is the thrill in just running away and sniping? No room for any other tactic. Elite was a dogfighting game, meant to be played mostly with the front laser. I don't want to see the rear laser removed from the game, I just don't think you should be forced to use it as your primary weapon. I think this situation has come about because of the proliferation of uber groups. You are one ship and you are expected to take on waves of 10+....forcing you to run away and use your rear laser. It's a horrible way of increasing difficulty for the elites. What is needed are more OXZ/OXPs like "skilled npcs". Not false solutions like bigger and bigger bad guy groups which just punishes everyone....unless you run away and rear laser snipe. And anyway, what pirates would be stupid enough to keep following you while you whittled them down to manageable. I don't think we should cut off half the ooniverse to lower skilled players. Everyone should, with some experience under their belt, get the chance to make that profitable trade run to a dangerous system....and survive. It should be tough, yes, but not terminal. I think sometimes elite players forget what it's like to chase that title. Wanting to get more kills to advance their ranking. Forcing them to stick to areas where there is hardly ever a pirate means that chase slows to a crawl, meaning that coveted title of elite is going to take them forever to reach.

Having completed Cim's survey I realized that the AI in 1.80 is much improved. Unqualified felt like 1.77 whereas even harmless was a big step up. I don't think npc accuracy needed to be upped so much, especially with the growth in groups sizes. It's ok saying "dodge more" but to destroy a ship you need to fly straight and level for a few seconds plus time to aim, unless you are in a dogfight locked on somebody's tail. With the improved AI it's such a pity there isn't more dogfighting.

I know that these are just my opinions and I hope they don't offend anyone. I just love this game so much and don't want to see newbies who have just discovered it turning away because it's too hard or too boring.

I'm up for the testing. I have a lot of time on my hands due to my illness so could give it a fair go. I'm deadly with 5840 kills (mostly on 1.77.1) but don't seem to be as skilled as most people here. Although I have no idea how to download nightly builds, etc.

[Diziet Sma]

Although I have no idea how to download nightly builds, etc.

That's quite easy.. they install just like the Standard Release versions, and are designed to co-exist peacefully alongside your regular Oolite install. I do recommend that you start off a fresh Commander just for the nightly, or split off and rename a copy of your regular Commander though, as things are probably about to change in trunk to the point you might not get a trunk gamesave to work correctly with 1.80 later on.

To get the nightlies:
Click here for Mac OSX
Click here for Windows
Click here for Linux

Note that once you have it installed, you don't need to download and install the entire package again after each update. All you need to do is execute the oolite-trunk-update script (located in the oolite-trunk folder) in a terminal, and any changed files will be updated automatically for you. Details of this can be found in the relevant threads linked above.