Combat balance - 1.80 and 1.82

[Switeck]

Though most sandbox games have perhaps an easier job in terms of "safe" and "dangerous" areas - sure, there'll be places you can't reach until you're good enough to beat a particular challenge, and more you'll have to to take a very indirect route to get to, but Oolite's map mixes safe and dangerous systems very closely together to the extent that getting anywhere at all much more interesting than the Leesti-Diso or Isinor-Zaonce run involves going through a system in the upper half of the difficulty range. That makes it quite difficult to balance the game to allow new players to start enjoying the trading/exploration parts of the game, without leaving very little space for the tougher systems to actually be tougher - the curve would need to be almost flat at least to Dictatorship, before moving up incredibly sharply for Feudal and Anarchy.

Galaxy Chart 1 should automatically be the safest of the 8, the player starts there and it represents more "Law and Order" than say Galaxy Chart 4 (which seems to have extremely strong anarchy, communist, and democracy movements which trigger violent civil wars that spill over into unsafe space conditions.) Lave and Xeer might also have influence well beyond their system boundaries due to a certain Navy with a dubious role and mandate.

One should question how piracy itself works in the game -- violence as a 1st resort when you don't get your way? These types shouldn't last long and indeed they don't if you stay in-system long enough and watch as a "fly on the wall". Pirates have to be added to the system from time-to-time to keep their numbers up. Police Vipers don't even need to get them, the average trader convoy of 1 freighter and 4 small fighters tends to get them possibly even on a 1-per-1 ship basis.

Were the most dangerous systems to get out-of-hand, all that has to happen to make them "safer" is for a huge trader group to travel through there ONCE. While the core game doesn't add these directly, the closely-timed arrival of 2 or more trader groups can roughly simulate it. Also, trader groups tend to "pile up" at the first indiscriminate pirate ambush they run into until they overwhelm it. I ran across this phenomena also when testing large-scale Thargoid attacks on a system. No matter how large I made the Thargoid group attacking, it tended to get wiped out...the bigger groups just took longer. Thargoids abandoning their Thargons after one fight didn't help them any.

So for piracy to be in any sense sustainable or at least ongoing, there has to be a ready source of new pirates and lots of old pirates surviving longer.
Even the aggressive ones need to flee if things look bad. Fortunately, they often currently do that...so not really any further work needed there.

Lone, greedy beggars might ask for a single cargo canister...in barely-functional ships and have tiny bounties that make them almost not worth killing. Their fighting skills might be equally as limited as their ship's quality but they might have one last missile left for anyone cruel enough to end their existence. They might never attack first.
Attacking them may make others think you're the pirate!

Traders leaving the station might announce which system they're jumping to, in case someone wants to hitch a ride. (free escorts!) Very rarely they might be pirates in disguise? ...Or lying about which system they're going to?
Such friendly traders might be conveniently helpful for new players starting out...

[another_commander]

When I tried it, I was able to choose a heading (away from the planet), dump the requested amount, and escape, while the pirates stopped firing and headed off, satisfied, following my ejected cargo. Admittedly I've only used this tactic once, and it worked perfectly - I'd just assumed all was well on that front. Obviously that's not the case. How are you ejecting the cargo? For me, it's just tap-tap-tap equals three pods ejected.

That has been my experience also. Just have the cargo you are willing to eject cycled and ready and if they ask you to drop, then start tapping the eject key. Even if they don't seem to be waiting and fire on you, once all requested amount has been ejected they will stop firing and move to retrieve it.

Oh and, in my opinion, a mission thrown at the player right at the start is so totally unElite-like. Very linear way to start a sandbox game and I don't like it at all to be honest.

[Cody]

<deletes post - nods>

[Disembodied]

A quick reminder to please consider doing the combat simulator survey if you haven't already. I'm getting some data, but I need a lot more, I think - Harmless, Elite, or anything in between. Thanks to everyone who has completed it so far.

Test results submitted (twice, actually - I forgot to fill in the details about controls, etc. first time ... ). But I wasn't able to attempt the final test, using my current ship: for some reason I'm only offered the Combat Simulator when I'm using a new pilot.

[Cody]

... using my current ship: for some reason I'm only offered the Combat Simulator when I'm using a new pilot.

Hmm... it works fine here, using my regular ship/commander (Oolite 1.80).

[Venator Dha]

A quick reminder to please consider doing the combat simulator survey if you haven't already. I'm getting some data, but I need a lot more, I think - Harmless, Elite, or anything in between. Thanks to everyone who has completed it so far.

Test results submitted (twice, actually - I forgot to fill in the details about controls, etc. first time ... ). But I wasn't able to attempt the final test, using my current ship: for some reason I'm only offered the Combat Simulator when I'm using a new pilot.

There seems to be some level cap. I could use some ships I had saved but not others - the more advanced.
TBH there didn't seem any point to test an tricked out Asp against some sidewinders.

[Disembodied]

Oh and, in my opinion, a mission thrown at the player right at the start is so totally unElite-like. Very linear way to start a sandbox game and I don't like it at all to be honest.

I tend to agree, although if it was less a mission and more of a small steer in a friendly direction - say, a parcel delivery for not much money to Diso, with no strings attached - that would be OK. I don't think giving players injectors right from the start is a good idea, either: the player's development track is short enough as it is without reducing it.

If there's a problem with new player survivability, I think we should aim to fix that problem (although my own experience is that 1.80 is eminently survivable in a starting Cobra III, far more so than was the case in 1.77). We already have a system whereby players can avoid pirate attacks, by surrendering cargo (this might need some more work).

There are some oddities about the traditional starting setup: one of the best trade-routes in the entire game (Isinor-Ensoreus) is just a couple of hops away from Lave, and the fact that Lave, as a Dictatorship, is quite dangerous, even though it's where new players start, is a little unexpected. Most games, even most sandbox games, still put beginning players on the nursery slopes to begin with. The simplest solution might be to rewrite the politics and economics of Lave and half-a dozen other planets nearby, and create a shallow end.

[Disembodied]

... using my current ship: for some reason I'm only offered the Combat Simulator when I'm using a new pilot.

Hmm... it works fine here, using my regular ship/commander (Oolite 1.80).

I've tried it with and without other OXPs installed: I can see the Combat Simulator with a new pilot, but not with my current one:

[Cody]

Just guessing... do you have the Ship Storage Helper installed? If not, perhaps that's why?

[cim]

Galaxy Chart 1 should automatically be the safest of the 8

Safest for who? "Pirate" and "Smuggler" are perfectly reasonable things for a player to want to do - even a beginner. At the moment we essentially force absolute beginners to be traders because there's not much else their ship can do, and that's also a problem.

the average trader convoy of 1 freighter and 4 small fighters tends to get them possibly even on a 1-per-1 ship basis.

True. Pirates are in 1.80 unlikely to attack without at least a 3:2 numeric advantage, maybe even 2:1 if they're not well-equipped. Generally they don't lose to traders anymore - its bounty hunters and police which thin out their numbers (and they actively try to avoid those ships)

I ran across this phenomena also when testing large-scale Thargoid attacks on a system. No matter how large I made the Thargoid group attacking, it tended to get wiped out...the bigger groups just took longer. Thargoids abandoning their Thargons after one fight didn't help them any.

1.80 Thargons will stick with their warship now (and the warship will slow down a little to let them keep up)

Such friendly traders might be conveniently helpful for new players starting out...

Possibly. This needs two things, I think:
1 - the ability for the player to be counted as part of an NPC group for odds calculations and other purposes. (Or the pirates will attack the player anyway, and the trader will think "glad it's not me" and leave them to it)
2 - NPC-compatible fast travel so that the player can both travel with an NPC group and reach the station in less than an hour of game play.
The first is in itself a fairly straightforward matter of programming, but not particularly useful unless there are groups that the player can join up with, and being able to negotiate that joining is a major piece of work for each group type. The second is something which has been discussed repeatedly here without anything that really seems like a workable solution.

But I wasn't able to attempt the final test, using my current ship: for some reason I'm only offered the Combat Simulator when I'm using a new pilot.

Combat Simulator is only available at Lave and at TL:10+ systems (and for laziness reasons, also four other systems)

The simplest solution might be to rewrite the politics and economics of Lave and half-a dozen other planets nearby, and create a shallow end.

The amusing thing is that we could probably get away with changing half the governments and economies of Chart 6, or even make somewhere like the cluster around Orgetibe just north of Lave different ... and people might eventually notice a discrepancy against ClymAngus' charts and wonder what was up - but if we made Lave a Democracy and Riedquat a Communist system I expect there would be immediate complaints. Simple but definitely best left to OXPs, I think!

An alternative might be to start the player somewhere that's already a little nicer. (I don't view "Lave is the only world which trains pilots / issues pilot licenses" as remotely plausible, and the option to start at Lave wouldn't go anywhere)

The Pulsar Worlds are extremely safe, but I think a little too good: Teanrebi-Tianve is even better than Isinor/Ensoreus as a route; Alaza-Tianve is almost as profitable and virtually risk-free.

There's the cluster of worlds on the "coathanger" to the east of the Devil's Triangle. Some nice trading routes probably slightly safer than Leesti-Diso and marginally more profitable. It's a bit lower-tech, however: Oresle is the best at TL:11 and the only place you can get injectors without either going through the Devil's Triangle or jumping through the Multigov at Usralaat into another fairly safe area. Arzaso might make a decent starting location in that region.

Maxeedso in Galcentre is another option. The really local safe trading worlds are actually a bit worse than Leesti-Diso for profit, though you do have Enonla as a nice high-tech world, but you can travel into either the Xexedi or Inera clusters without having to pass through anywhere worse than Confederacy.

[Disembodied]

Combat Simulator is only available at Lave and at TL:10+ systems (and for laziness reasons, also four other systems)

That'll do it ... I'll complete the test and submit the final results.

[Cody]

"Pirate" and "Smuggler" are perfectly reasonable things for a player to want to do - even a beginner. At the moment we essentially force absolute beginners to be traders because there's not much else their ship can do, and that's also a problem.

I really ought to write a contrabandista's version of Mr Gimlet - starting as a smuggler is definitely feasible.

[Zireael]

An alternative might be to start the player somewhere that's already a little nicer. (I don't view "Lave is the only world which trains pilots / issues pilot licenses" as remotely plausible, and the option to start at Lave wouldn't go anywhere)

The Pulsar Worlds are extremely safe, but I think a little too good: Teanrebi-Tianve is even better than Isinor/Ensoreus as a route; Alaza-Tianve is almost as profitable and virtually risk-free.

There's the cluster of worlds on the "coathanger" to the east of the Devil's Triangle. Some nice trading routes probably slightly safer than Leesti-Diso and marginally more profitable. It's a bit lower-tech, however: Oresle is the best at TL:11 and the only place you can get injectors without either going through the Devil's Triangle or jumping through the Multigov at Usralaat into another fairly safe area. Arzaso might make a decent starting location in that region.

Maxeedso in Galcentre is another option. The really local safe trading worlds are actually a bit worse than Leesti-Diso for profit, though you do have Enonla as a nice high-tech world, but you can travel into either the Xexedi or Inera clusters without having to pass through anywhere worse than Confederacy.

That's a really good idea.

About traveling with NPC, there's already a few workarounds, see Hired Guns or Escort Contracts...

[Redspear]

"Pirate" and "Smuggler" are perfectly reasonable things for a player to want to do - even a beginner. At the moment we essentially force absolute beginners to be traders because there's not much else their ship can do, and that's also a problem.

Even trading in your ship at Lave (tech level 5) won't give you a lot of options. Which begs the question of how they managed to manufacture one of the core games best ships...

An alternative might be to start the player somewhere that's already a little nicer. (I don't view "Lave is the only world which trains pilots / issues pilot licenses" as remotely plausible, and the option to start at Lave wouldn't go anywhere).

Some thoughts on the suggested worlds...

#175. Oresle (190,210), {20,119,134,148,176,190,216} within 7.0 LY. Radius 5310 km.
Confederacy, Poor Ind. Pop. 4.8 B, Prod. 27648 MCr. HC: 7, TL: 11, Human Colonials.
This world is reasonably notable for its great volcanoes but ravaged by a vicious disease.

TL 11 so lots of options there but very close to the edge of the map (similar to Lave).
Problem there can be that you may head one way only to have to retrace your steps almost immediately due to a lack of 'low-risk' options. Additionally, the planet description gives the player a great reason to leave there in the first place.

#208. Arzaso (216,225), {69,103,118,119,122,160,190,205} within 7.0 LY. Radius 5592 km.
Confederacy, Average Ind. Pop. 4.3 B, Prod. 27864 MCr. HC: 8, TL: 10, Human Colonials.
Arzaso is a an unremarkable planet.

TL 10 is not too shabby but again, very close to the edge of the map.

#249. Maxeedso (105,109), {29,42,45,93,131,144,167,168} within 7.0 LY. Radius 5737 km.
Confederacy, Rich Agri. Pop. 3.5 B, Prod. 12600 MCr. HC: 8, TL: 7, Small Black Fat Insects.
This world is mildly famous for its vast rain forests and the Maxeedsoian tree wolf.

TL 7 might not be great but compared to Lave that means that fuel scoops, space compass and passenger berths are now available (all useful items in terms of 'career' choice). It's also located close to galctic centre.
This planet isn't inhabited by Human colonials, which might be an issue for some (...unless you see yourself as a small, black, fat, insect).
On the plus side, like Lave it has its own "vast rain forests"

Being so famous to Elite veterans, Lave might be as much fun to 'discover' as to start at?

[Switeck]

Galaxy Chart 1 should automatically be the safest of the 8

Safest for who? "Pirate" and "Smuggler" are perfectly reasonable things for a player to want to do - even a beginner. At the moment we essentially force absolute beginners to be traders because there's not much else their ship can do, and that's also a problem.

Safest can mean a few things -- if there's few traders and few pirates, the odds of back-to-back or simultaneous pirate attacks can be low and likewise options for piracy can be improved. To me, it was the "short" spacelanes that were the most dangerous -- 2 big pirate groups were more likely to be in sensor range of each other. From what I understand, more ships get added if there's more stations in the system...so if players add a bunch of station-adding OXPs/OXZs, they'll have more crowded spacelanes anyway.

If you think piracy should be possible for a new player in a ship with little more than a pulse laser and a fuel scoop in a Corporate State, Galaxy Chart 1 should be as good as any for doing that. But they better have a feel for how far away Vipers, Bounty Hunters, and other Traders are if/when they attack a lone ship. Ironically, such systems are far more likely to have unescorted freighters. So what's the problem here?

If the idea is the player can't just go off-lane and torus all the way to the station, spreading pirates and traders in a larger cone or cylinder down the spacelane can serve to make large groups of either in 1 spot less likely. Currently, the spread seems to be only about 25 km from spacelane centerline. What if it was instead 50 km or even 100 km? And what if some traders and pirates are spawned on the Witchpoint <-> Main Station route instead of the Witchpoint <-> Planet route? Police Vipers and most Bounty Hunters might still travel close to the main spacelane centerline out of habit, for those that want a more secure traveling route rather than a faster one.

The Torus drive or heavy injector use will serve to make the spacelanes feel more crowded than they are either way. Getting half as many mass-locks on the way to the station will be the main side-effect. The torus should decelerate HARD in the event of a mass-lock, to prevent a "splat!" anyway, so 5km stopping distance is perfectly acceptable for it.

Such friendly traders might be conveniently helpful for new players starting out...

Possibly. This needs two things, I think:
1 - the ability for the player to be counted as part of an NPC group for odds calculations and other purposes. (Or the pirates will attack the player anyway, and the trader will think "glad it's not me" and leave them to it)
2 - NPC-compatible fast travel so that the player can both travel with an NPC group and reach the station in less than an hour of game play.
The first is in itself a fairly straightforward matter of programming, but not particularly useful unless there are groups that the player can join up with, and being able to negotiate that joining is a major piece of work for each group type. The second is something which has been discussed repeatedly here without anything that really seems like a workable solution.

Choice 1 is the best one, and logically makes some sense. If players want safety, they should tag along near/with a slow freighter group. Having freighers in dangerous systems ignore other traders getting ganged-up on by pirates makes this game even more player-centric than it already is, since only the player would intervene. (Well other than maybe bounty hunters and police, however bad the odds might be for them!) A trip through a dangerous system for a starting player should be slower and a little more nerve-wracking than for a vet with an iron-assed ship that just burns right to the station and dares something to try to stop it. A trader or freighter you successfully defend from an attack (when a pirate breaks off to retreat or attack you instead) might sometimes/rarely have them giving you a small token of thanks, like 0.1-10 credits.

Pirates should "sum up" the difficulty of an attack based on what's within sensor range rather than just counting the ships in 1 group, and having Police Vipers around should be a big discouragement but not a total one if their numbers are low and the system is more "lawless". If pirate groups can be presumed to (always?) assist each other, then so too can trader groups.