Proposal for 1.82: equipment balancing and choices

[Redspear]

Well, like so many of the ideas presented here, its merits depend upon how you see (and wish to play) the game.

I agree however that more options for this sort of thing would be good. BTW, your oxp assigning cargo space to core equipment is perhaps the closest thing to anything like this that we currently have... and it's super easy to tweak too

[cim]

It did occur to me, while away from the code over the weekend, that if anyone wants to implement the equipment space concept, it is OXPable in 1.80 because all core equipment has the "oolite-conditions.js" script attached to it, which an OXP could override to add an equipment space counter.

Regarding implementing this ... most of it is either a "no hurry" sort of thing with mostly cosmetic effect (e.g. ECM graphics, installation times) or a fairly big piece of work requiring more design first (e.g. NPC equipment - what does it even mean for an NPC to have a Scanner Targeting Enhancement?). The beam laser change I might do something about fairly soon, though - it's literally just changing two numbers in one file, and some feedback on how it feels in combat would be useful.

My impression of Oolite's Constrictor mission was that it was surprisingly easy.

Well, it is only the first mission, and the reward is fairly small (and the player may well not be that experienced)

You have to carefully avoid combat at the beginning, in a space shooting game! It is a bit silly when you think about it.

More packs of pirates in the safeish systems which only had light fighters (Sidewinder, Mamba, Krait) and only had pulse lasers would give something a beginner could easily take on.

As it is, the combat odds algorithm would mean they never dared attack a Cobra III without overwhelming numeric superiority, though: that probably needs to be tweaked so that you need to be flying something pretty ridiculous before pirates won't attack at 3:1 odds no matter how bad their ships are.

[Venator Dha]

As it is, the combat odds algorithm would mean they never dared attack a Cobra III without overwhelming numeric superiority, though: that probably needs to be tweaked so that you need to be flying something pretty ridiculous before pirates won't attack at 3:1 odds no matter how bad their ships are.

Perhaps there needs to be some levels of boldness and/or idiocy for the Pirates. Some (but not most) will attack whatever the odds, or even if it doesn't make sense.

e.g. When I'm flying as a courier without cargo with some repartition, I can fly straight through a pack of offender/fugitive Pirates in an Anarchy without being attacked - which is fine - but sometimes it would be good to be surprised and be attacked - make a change from all the assassins

[mossfoot]

You have to carefully avoid combat at the beginning, in a space shooting game! It is a bit silly when you think about it.

Have to disagree. First off it's not just a shooting game. There are those who enjoy it while stringently avoiding serious combat, even if they're equipped for it.

But more importantly, I always felt that the main problem of many Elite-like games was how easy they made combat. Freelancer, as I recall, had me score over fifty kills in the first half hour. The hell? Pirates throwing themselves at me wave after wave in ships made of tissue while I was in a stock unupgraded ship? It is a bit silly when you think about it.

I mean pirates can be bold and even desperate, but that's not the same as going kamakazi. Their goal is to get loot for hookers and grog, and part of that plan involves living past the encounter.

If you want to get into combat faster, you can always use the Fast-Track Start. For me, crawling up from a Broke Adder start feels like I've survived the grim realities of the Ooniverse.

[spara]

After pondering quite a bit with the Ore Processor should it take cargo space or not and finally concluding that it just does not feel right, I came to think something else. Something simple. And here's what I was thinking:

1. Each ship has a unique number of equipment slots. 5? 10? Depends on the ship size.
2. Equipments either occupy a slot or don't. If they do, they are probably something physical like Ore Processor. If they don't, then they are probably software upgrades, like MFDs.
3. There is no limit for equipments that don't occupy a slot.
4. If an equipment occupies a slot, it's physical and it can be damaged.

[Lone_Wolf]

After pondering quite a bit with the Ore Processor should it take cargo space or not and finally concluding that it just does not feel right, I came to think something else. Something simple. And here's what I was thinking:

1. Each ship has a unique number of equipment slots. 5? 10? Depends on the ship size.
2. Equipments either occupy a slot or don't. If they do, they are probably something physical like Ore Processor. If they don't, then they are probably software upgrades, like MFDs.
3. There is no limit for equipments that don't occupy a slot.
4. If an equipment occupies a slot, it's physical and it can be damaged.

If those equipment slots are used by both built-in & oxp equipment, you'll need a much larger number.
It would also impose an artificial limit on what you can install, which would be toughest on users of small ships.

If this was implemented, how much time would pass before people ask for a hyperequipment oxp to get around the limitation ?

currently anything visible in equipment screen can be damaged, but you can add lots fo things.
IF there's a limit on the number of equipment devices you can have, it's high.

[spara]

If those equipment slots are used by both built-in & oxp equipment, you'll need a much larger number.

If pursued, needs serious thinking of course, but in my thoughts many of the equipments do not need any slot at all. They are upgrades to the equipment already in place. Which leads to another idea... there could be equipment slots in equipment too. Currently Ore Processor needs Scoops, so one might think that there is a hardware upgrade slot in scoops. Once that slot is taken, no other hardware upgrade would be possible on that equipment. If I recall right there is or was a scoop upgrade that allowed scooping fuel from space. For example that and Ore Processor might be going to the same slot forcing you to think which to take.

Software upgrades would generally have no limit. Install as many MFDs as you like.

It would also impose an artificial limit on what you can install, which would be toughest on users of small ships.

Only artificial until a proper handwavium is introduced. For example I much like the pylon thinking with missiles. That's a hard limit that roughly goes up by ship size effectively limiting pylon installable equipment/missiles/mines/etc.

If this was implemented, how much time would pass before people ask for a hyperequipment oxp to get around the limitation ?

Split second?

currently anything visible in equipment screen can be damaged, but you can add lots of things.

Not true, it's possible to make equipment non-damageable and visible. And that is used too. Currently the main reason for me to favour damageable equipment is creating more money holes.

[Lone_Wolf]

currently anything visible in equipment screen can be damaged, but you can add lots of things.

Not true, it's possible to make equipment non-damageable and visible. And that is used too. Currently the main reason for me to favour damageable equipment is creating more money holes.

Oops, you're right .
visibility in equipment screen has nothing to do with damage possibilty, and the new damageProbability makes it easy to make anything undamagable.

I do like your idea of giving some equipment devices equipment slots, it makes sense and feels much less artificial then a limit based on size of ships.
maybe the upgrade possibilities could even be related to ship type (general purpose, bounty hunter, trader, courier, miner ).

[tinker]

You have to carefully avoid combat at the beginning, in a space shooting game! It is a bit silly when you think about it.

Have to disagree. First off it's not just a shooting game. There are those who enjoy it while stringently avoiding serious combat, even if they're equipped for it.

But more importantly, I always felt that the main problem of many Elite-like games was how easy they made combat. Freelancer, as I recall, had me score over fifty kills in the first half hour. The hell? Pirates throwing themselves at me wave after wave in ships made of tissue while I was in a stock unupgraded ship? It is a bit silly when you think about it.

I mean pirates can be bold and even desperate, but that's not the same as going kamakazi. Their goal is to get loot for hookers and grog, and part of that plan involves living past the encounter.

If you want to get into combat faster, you can always use the Fast-Track Start. For me, crawling up from a Broke Adder start feels like I've survived the grim realities of the Ooniverse.

I must agree, for me combat is the last thing I am interested in, avoiding it was much more fun. I have noticed over the years a change in the core to be more involved with combat. I gave up trading years ago as there was not enough profit to make it interesting, running passengers and packages I made a steady income and avoiding hostile contact was the most important thing. Sadly that is now not possible.

I had so much problem just surviving with my ancient old persona that I created a new Jameson to see how it works for new players, I have not in about 50 starts made it past my third jump. Currently I have a package to deliver to Begeabi from Lave, the money might just pay for one upgrade, on the 15 occasions I have actually got to the delivery system without having packs of 10 pirates after me I find another pack waiting at the witchpoint for me, I am usually dead before I get to full power. I can no longer play the way I want and it seems to me that a new player cannot play long enough to get interested, even if they are good at combat and interested in getting better, just how does a ship with a pulse laser and a couple of missiles get any income to build a better ship?

For me the balance is such that I have less interest in following my carrier further, I realise that for some the balance is moving to a place where they are more interested but I feel Oolite is no longer a trading game with some action but is a combat game with some other things thrown in to add variety.

[Scouseair]

I have to agree. I am interested in trading AND combat and feel that the combat balance has been skewed too far in favour of the pirates in 1.80. I would hate to start afresh. The singles run away when you fire in their general direction, if it's a duo the other runs when you kill the first. 4 or more and you're dead within seconds of them starting to fire. And that's in a Python ET special with an iron ass. In 1.77 they increased the bad guys weapon power to match the player but said, "don't worry....we've reduced their accuracy so it'll even out". In 1.80 they upped the accuracy and it's taken out fighting groups altogether. Unless you follow the advice to "run away and use your rear lasers". Surely that's not the way the game is meant to be played. Not every fight. I've had some of my best moments in Oolite taking on groups of 4+, sniping one, maybe two on the way in, maybe get a third with the rear laser after the merge, then into the dogfighting, using shields and lasers tactically and coming out the other side with a surge of euphoria. That playstyle is gone with 1.80. It may not be "realistic"[sic], but it is FUN. We are meant to be the hero, fighting impossible odds, better than anyone else. Remember, we are just one ship, the pirates fight in groups. We have to have the advantage.

Instead of talking about making the game harder by nerfing lasers to stop sniping, or bringing in equipment limits we should be fixing 1.80 so it's playable for everyone again. Not just the veterans. The core game should be a game for everybody and let the OXP/OXZers introduce extra difficulty for those who want it. It's not just veterans play this game. It's the young, elderly and some disabled too.

All this aside, I love this game and am just sad that I, like a few others out there, will stick to 1.77.1 for now.

[Switeck]

Almost sounds like these last few comments belong more on the "Maybe I'm just old and slow..." thread here:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16680
...which discusses how the combat balance has changed from v1.77 to v1.80.

And also the "Split: Assassins" message thread here:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16793

They're really good points and shouldn't be forgotten.

[Zireael]

After pondering quite a bit with the Ore Processor should it take cargo space or not and finally concluding that it just does not feel right, I came to think something else. Something simple. And here's what I was thinking:

1. Each ship has a unique number of equipment slots. 5? 10? Depends on the ship size.
2. Equipments either occupy a slot or don't. If they do, they are probably something physical like Ore Processor. If they don't, then they are probably software upgrades, like MFDs.
3. There is no limit for equipments that don't occupy a slot.
4. If an equipment occupies a slot, it's physical and it can be damaged.

I like the slots idea.

I say shields ought to take 1 slot, boosters 1+1, mil 1+2.
Fuel Scoops 1 slot.
Large Cargo Bay 1 slot.

Targeting stuff doesn't occupy a slot.

What about ECM/missiles?

[Smivs]

I say shields ought to take 1 slot, boosters 1+1, mil 1+2.
Fuel Scoops 1 slot.
Large Cargo Bay 1 slot.

Targeting stuff doesn't occupy a slot.

What about ECM/missiles?

Large cargo bay - 1 slot? I'd say it was much bigger than that!
ECM is probably small - just a bit of electronic kit, so probably not needing a slot. Missiles use pylons anyway, so are not really relevant to this discussion.

[ffutures]

I have to agree. I am interested in trading AND combat and feel that the combat balance has been skewed too far in favour of the pirates in 1.80. I would hate to start afresh. The singles run away when you fire in their general direction, if it's a duo the other runs when you kill the first. 4 or more and you're dead within seconds of them starting to fire. And that's in a Python ET special with an iron ass. In 1.77 they increased the bad guys weapon power to match the player but said, "don't worry....we've reduced their accuracy so it'll even out". In 1.80 they upped the accuracy and it's taken out fighting groups altogether. Unless you follow the advice to "run away and use your rear lasers". Surely that's not the way the game is meant to be played. Not every fight. I've had some of my best moments in Oolite taking on groups of 4+, sniping one, maybe two on the way in, maybe get a third with the rear laser after the merge, then into the dogfighting, using shields and lasers tactically and coming out the other side with a surge of euphoria. That playstyle is gone with 1.80. It may not be "realistic"[sic], but it is FUN. We are meant to be the hero, fighting impossible odds, better than anyone else. Remember, we are just one ship, the pirates fight in groups. We have to have the advantage.

Instead of talking about making the game harder by nerfing lasers to stop sniping, or bringing in equipment limits we should be fixing 1.80 so it's playable for everyone again. Not just the veterans. The core game should be a game for everybody and let the OXP/OXZers introduce extra difficulty for those who want it. It's not just veterans play this game. It's the young, elderly and some disabled too.

All this aside, I love this game and am just sad that I, like a few others out there, will stick to 1.77.1 for now.

My problem (flying a Boa Cruiser) is that these days I only seem to be attacked by large groups - I decided some time ago to play the game in "never fire first" gunfighter mode, e.g. if I see an offender/fugitive I don't open fire unless he's attacking me or another clean ship. Which means that I spend a lot of time watching these ships decide that I'm too tough to handle then fly away. When big groups attack I do have to use the "run and fire the rear gun" strategy, because my ship won't survive any other way - at least until I've eliminated some of the attackers. What I really miss is the occasional lone nutter or small group that made head-on dogfighting interesting. But this isn't new with 1.80, it goes back to 1.77 and earlier.

[Venator Dha]

What I really miss is the occasional lone nutter or small group that made head-on dogfighting interesting.

Exactly. The Pirates have become Pirate-Accountants