[RELEASE] Skilled NPCs (1.77 only)

[mandoman]

"Four times bigger" ... I wonder if this is the problem? Your turrets have to track and lock a small target moving at a high relative speed - its turrets have a much easier job. And if it was firing with turrets at you, you could have a whole field of plasma inbound before that first hit registered and your own turrets slowly started to lock on.

*downloads FireAnt, tests fight, gets an iron-ass Boa II blown to pieces*

Okay, so it's by a fair margin a smaller and more difficult target than any core game ship, and it moves faster than an Asp. It's also got two beam lasers and two turrets, and with the guaranteed shield booster it's got more shield energy than a Thargoid warship (it'll take a full military laser blast and still be standing). To be honest, I'm not at all surprised it's making mincemeat of anything that comes near it...

I could buy this, if I haven't been able to take out the FireAnt with bigger ships, in other situations, and no ball turrets. The Mantis is quite agile for it's size, and I juked all over the place trying to dodge the FireAnt's shots. It never missed. And, like you said, when the front lasers over heated, it turned around and started blasting me with the aft laser, AND IT NEVER MISSED. What, do you think that I just sit still and let the pirates take crack shots at me? I dive, and swoop all about, nearly as much as the pirate, if not just as much, but where I miss, THEY NEVER MISS. You can show me all the stats you want, and they will still not explain why MY super shields go down three times faster than the pirate's shields.

As for the FireAnt being faster than a Core Game ship, well, let's just say that it ain't nothin' compared to several other oxp ships. It, at least, doesn't explode with a quirium blast at it's own demise. That's just a plain cheap shot. You took it on with a Cobra III, which I have been using one myself here recently. I could have told you before you started that the FireAnt would cream the poor snake. However, try taking it on with a fully loaded Mantis. Before 1.77, the FireAnt didn't stand a chance when faced with a Mantis. I even encountered a Pirate Mantis once when flying my FireAnt, and I had to run for my life. Barely got away, too.

As for the tired suggestion of removing oxp ships because they are suddenly too dangerous, what does that say about the game itself, when I could handle ALL those ships before 1.77. I can't believe anyone would start comparing Core ships, with no enhancements, to oxp ships installed because they in fact do enhance the challenge. I never use to worry about the Core ships, but recently someone has made at least one Cobra III that fires multiple forward lasers, and very powerful lasers at that, and if you do manage to blow them away, their death sets off a quirium explosion. If you aren't familiar with that particular Cobra III, you won't know to fly away quickly when you blow it from the sky. There were other oxp ships doing that before the Cobra III.

Ah, let's face it, we're never going to find common ground on this.

[gizmo]

Ah, let's face it, we're never going to find common ground on this.

Common ground is a core came with no OXPs.

Any OXP is - in one way or the other - unbalancing. The older the OXP / the uber the ship the more likely the unbalancing factor.

It's up to you to keep the balance in your Ooniverse to your tastes.

Edited to add:

And since you are the author of the mentioned ships any fine tuning should be quite easy.

[Thargoid]

And as a control test, why not try a one-on-one combat between two equal ships (ie both Mantis's or both FireAnts) in 1.77 and in 1.76.1 too and see if things are repeatable?

That would give more information on things like size, speed and turret orientation etc.

[mandoman]

Any OXP is - in one way or the other - unbalancing. The older the OXP / the uber the ship the more likely the unbalancing factor.

It's up to you to keep the balance in your Ooniverse to your tastes.

Edited to add:

And since you are the author of the mentioned ships any fine tuning should be quite easy.

Oh I see. So the "Common Ground" can change, and become as different as the Core Team wants, while the oxps are just kind of a nuisance. As for being the Author of the worst ships, I don't even come close. The only thing that could be construed as "Uber" with many of my ships is that they are too fast compared to Core ships. But, if you go back before I started building ship oxps, you will find the trend had long been in place.

You do have one thing I agree with. I'll do what ever I please with my version of the game. I've had my say, and am saying no more.

[cim]

You took it on with a Cobra III, which I have been using one myself here recently. I could have told you before you started that the FireAnt would cream the poor snake.

Boa II, the first time. I couldn't find a working download link for the Mantis, so I was picking a similar-sized core ship.

In my Cobra III (iron-ass, with the only OXP improvement being the Military HUD) it's a fairer fight. I just took on three at once. Two of them are now in little pieces, I didn't see which direction the third fled in, and they never got through my shields (though it was close at times). Being a much smaller and less round target than the Boa II helped: so many of their laser shots were going harmlessly above and below me, and they never really got close enough to use their turrets much. Do not underestimate the Cobra III.

I never use to worry about the Core ships, but recently someone has made at least one Cobra III that fires multiple forward lasers, and very powerful lasers at that, and if you do manage to blow them away, their death sets off a quirium explosion.

Well, sure. And there's a ship in one OXP that blows up the sun if you kill it, and a missile OXP which blows up everything in the galaxy when you fire it.

We set up the AI and weapon balance for the core ships and ships of comparable power levels.

Simultaneously balancing the game for ships orders of magnitudes more powerful than that - the size and speed of a Thargon, the shields of a Thargoid Warship, and the firepower of an (OXP) Thargoid Battleship - and keeping that balance intact as the game changes is not practical.

THEY NEVER MISS

If you're flying a ship 110m by 110m by 60m, as the Mantis is, no, they probably don't. They don't miss Thargoid Warships very often either. If you fly a smaller ship, they will miss, at least at the long end of their weapon range.

This is also a change since 1.76: in 1.76 the accuracy of NPC shots was determined by the size of your ship: they would (bizarrely) miss an Anaconda and a Worm by exactly the same amount. In 1.77, the accuracy is an aim circle of mostly-fixed size, and so smaller ships are harder for NPCs to hit, and larger ships are easier.

It looks like your OXP setup is basically such that every change since 1.76 hits you at once far harder than anyone else experiences:
- NPCs now actually use their aft lasers more than once in a blue moon if they have them fitted: you get shot at twice as hard because you have lots of NPCs with aft lasers and the switching between fore and aft means the NPCs dodge your shots a lot more than they used to
- NPCs aim is better against large ships than small ships: you like flying really big ships
- Military lasers do a lot more damage than before: you have a lot of NPCs with (sometimes multiple) military lasers

You will be able to reduce this effect by taking all the aft and military lasers off the NPCs. Then when they overheat (which will be quicker than in 1.76), they'll stop shooting at you for a bit.

...

However. We want Oolite to continue in development and change as a game. Every change we make - even some of the bug fixes - has the potential to alter how OXPs work, and how OXPs interact with each other. We try, so far as is possible, to keep "compatibility" with previous versions. But that just means that OXPs written for previous versions will load and mostly do the same sort of thing. What we can't guarantee, without committing to never changing anything significant about the game, is that the creative vision of the OXP's author will be untouched by the changes.

So this will probably continue to happen - especially with OXPs which go well beyond the range of the core game - though next time it probably won't be you personally it happens to. Yes, the core can and will change: that's what new versions are for. But no, OXPs are not a nuisance. If we considered them that, we wouldn't be introducing new features for them - which the combat changes are - and we wouldn't be trying, at the cost of moving forward much slower than we could otherwise, to keep as much compatibility as possible between stable releases.

[Commander McLane]

… a missile OXP which blows up everything in the galaxy when you fire it.

Although, to be precise, that particular weapon is a mine, not a missile. (Not that it matters much for the argument.)

As for being the Author of the worst ships, I don't even come close. The only thing that could be construed as "Uber" with many of my ships is that they are too fast compared to Core ships. But, if you go back before I started building ship oxps, you will find the trend had long been in place.

That's a non-argument. First of all, nobody has claimed that your ships are the worst, thus you don't need to prove that they're not. But second, it's silly to refute that some of your ships are in the "über" territory, just because some other ships are even more "über". That's like saying: "No, officer, you can't give me a speeding ticket for driving 120 in an 80-zone, because I have seen others drive 150."

[Diziet Sma]

The impression I get from reading all of this, (and I may be wrong) is that Mandoman has designed many of his ships to compensate for, and/or take advantage of, the inherent weaknesses and limitations that NPC ships have had up until now. Now that those weaknesses and limitations have been reduced, his game has suddenly become massively unbalanced, as, naturally, his personal Ooniverse contains a lot of his own ships.

The solution is clear.. Several of Mandoman's ships will need re-balancing, to match the current reality. As do a number of powerful OXP ships by other authors, which were also designed to compensate for NPC weaknesses. At one time, they helped make the game more challenging for experienced players, but now they make it almost impossible.

It has always been the case that some OXPs will be impacted and must adapt to changes in the core game. Even my own tiny effort had to adapt when 1.77 was released. It just so happens that the latest changes particularly affect heavily armed NPC ships, leading Mandoman to feel he has somehow been unfairly treated.

[UK_Eliter]

In what I take to be the spirit of Diziet Sma's post, I'd like to say that it would be good were this discussion to end amicably (although I am not, note, accusing anyone of being rude). Perhaps we should bear the following in mind, obvious though it is. In a community wherein things are not discussed face to face, i.e. an online community, it can be all too easy to have rows when really there's no need. (Not that I want to pose as some paragon of virtue - not at all!)

[mandoman]

That's a non-argument. First of all, nobody has claimed that your ships are the worst, thus you don't need to prove that they're not. But second, it's silly to refute that some of your ships are in the "über" territory, just because some other ships are even more "über". That's like saying: "No, officer, you can't give me a speeding ticket for driving 120 in an 80-zone, because I have seen others drive 150."

Once again, you have shown your extreme opinion of both my intelegence, and character. Perhaps you should go back and re-read cims post that points out that my ships are too uber, by far, for 1.77. Another as much as said that very thing, and sneered at me for it. You have never had many good things to say either to me, or about my ships, so I'm not surprised that the most disdainful, and insulting comments come from you.

You think I'm rude because I have issues with what has been changed in the game? Look at your own words, and those of others addressing me, and tell me that you are any less rude, if not more so.

You know something, I've had it with you, and this whole discussion. I'm beginning to understand the mysterious disappearance of Charlie. It may be time for me to pull the same disappearing trick.

To those of you who have been patient with my critical, and emotional nature, I give thanks. Commander McLane, I would tell you what you can do, but that would be rude, wouldn't it.

[UK_Eliter]

In what I take to be the spirit of Diziet Sma's post, I'd like to say that it would be good were this discussion to end amicably (although I am not, note, accusing anyone of being rude). Perhaps we should bear the following in mind, obvious though it is. In a community wherein things are not discussed face to face, i.e. an online community, it can be all too easy to have rows when really there's no need. (Not that I want to pose as some paragon of virtue - not at all!)

Well, that doesn't seem really to have done the job, does it? Hey ho.

[mandoman]

My apologies, UK_eliter. My apologies to all. It isn't my game, so I shouldn't complain. I don't know what to say about personality conflicts.

[another_commander]

No matter what you say about oxps, and their inferior standing to the Core Oolite, the impact they make is huge, to say the least. The way you put it is that the game is what it is, and is not really much different than what it was, and if people like me don't like it, we can shove off? So, in other words, the only comments about the game that you consider worthy of notice are the compliments.

I do not have to add anything further to the technical side of the discussion, as it has been covered by others, but I do want to take a moment to say that:
- I never said that OXPs have inferior standing to Oolite. By design and by definition, OXPs are expansions to the core and, as such, they may need to receive changes whenever the core changes. There is nothing inferior about it and all projects which are based on a core set / expansions model work in exactly the same way.
- I never said that anyone should shove off; you have obviously misunderstood my remark. What I meant to say was: If we get people saying that the game has become difficult and people saying at the same time that it's fine and it was good that it was changed to what it is now, what do we do next? Who do we listen to? Answer: we go ahead developing as we've always had, some people will be happier than others no matter what we change or do. Cim has already mentioned how much attention goes to OXPs and end users from our side so I won't go and repeat it here. Just wanted to clear these two items up.

[cim]

Skilled NPCs 1.2 is now out (for 1.79 or later only). This is mainly a compatibility release for 1.79s new ship roles - bringing the new pirates, hunters and assassins into the scope of the OXP.

It'll also now use the auto_weapons flag on ships - if it's not enabled, and it isn't by default, then this won't touch it.

Download links in the first post are updated; I'll add it to the automatic download list soon, but we're currently in the middle of testing a new way of generating that, so not for a few days.

[Cody]

Skilled NPCs 1.2 is now out (for 1.79 or later only).

The link for that OXZ gives a '404 Not Found' message.

Ah, I had to change the suffix from .zip to .oxz - got it now.

[cim]

Thanks - link fixed.