Elite canon and the Navy - Wiki rollback?

[Diziet Sma]

As work progresses on HIMSN, this is a subject worth visiting, I think..

I was looking back over the early posts in that thread, and came across this (emphasis mine).

If on the Wiki, one maybe would have to look back to page revisions previous to the release of Galactic Navy.oxp. The creator of the OXP changed the Elite backstory (and the Wiki) considerably in order to accommodate the massive military he created. I see that as a deviation from Elite canon, but because not many people are aware of that, and the OXP is one of the most recommended for newbies, this deviation from canon has (for many players) turned into canon. For me personally, one of the central points of canon, and in fact one of the defining characteristics of GalCop as an organisation is that it doesn't have a considerable naval force. The whacky and oddly-named "Her Imperial Majesty's Space Navy" that you encounter in the two native missions is really all there is.

At the time, I raised the question of returning the  Wiki entry for the Navy to something more like the way it was before Matt634 re-wrote it to fit in with his OXP, but the matter was not taken any further..

Compare the above Wiki link with the way the page looked before Matt634 altered it..
http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php?title= ... oldid=3533


Accordingly, I'd like to propose restoring the entry to something more like the canon version.. and perhaps add a note on the Galactic Navy OXP Wiki page that it changes things considerably from canon..

As a separate and secondary proposal, I was also wondering if, since the intent of HIMSN is to return things to a state much closer to canon, once HIMSN is completed, the Wiki entry for the Navy might be tweaked to suit? So far as I can see, this would mostly involve things like the HQ and base locations, and one or two ship classes.

(For that matter, does anyone know where Selezen got his information about things like the 14 G1 sectors, and the 103 regular navy squadrons and 230+ reserve squadrons from anyway? Is that genuinely canon, or filler he created himself?)

Ok.. the floor is open for discussion..

[Diogenese Senna]

I've always been very wary of anything that get's termed Canon after coming across the rabid nature of those who seem to think that Canon is what they say and anyone else can go burn (I speak primarily of extreme Doctor Who fans (yes I am one, but not extreme), and other reasonably well known american Sci-fi series )).

Canon, I suppose, is whatever is going through your mind when we're playing, and everyone is going to have a completely different story as they go about trading. I have no difficulty in the Gal-Cop Navy, and the new HIMSN playing side by side with each other, but I can see the dangers of a very few rapidly taking sides and causing a burst of the type of ill-feeling that can easily get out of hand.

As for genuine canon, the only people who can say would be messers Bell and Braben, anything else, strictly speaking, is nothing more than fan-fic.

[Smivs]

worms-can, can-worms!
It'll be a brave man who tries this out. However I have to agree with the principle, and feel that overall the Wiki should prinicipally reflect canon, while accomodating and respecting all OXPs.
In this case, might an option be to 'roll-back' to something similar to the old page referenced above, but possibly edited further to only reflect the tiny bit of existing 'true' canon relating to the navy. By this I mean just any detail included in the Elite Manual/s and what is known from the core game missions. In addition to this, sections could then be added to the page relating to Navy OXPs, explaining not only the nature, structure and scope of the OXPs but how they fit in with canon (or not!), and with notes regarding other ways (such as market-influencing changes) in which they could affect gameplay etc.
This would represent a bit of a departure from the usual 'one page per OXP' format of the Wiki, but would at least give readers a single point of insight into all aspects of this issue. This could not be comfortably achieved by having multiple pages, although a series of cross-references would be a far less effective way of doing this.
A compromise might be to have a 'Navy' page similar to the old page but with a brief summary of the navy OXPs with links, and then stay with the separate pages for each OXP, perhaps adding a prominent link to the 'Navy' page to these.

[Diogenese Senna]

worms-can, can-worms!

Indeed.

[Disembodied]

A compromise might be to have a 'Navy' page similar to the old page but with a brief summary of the navy OXPs with links, and then stay with the separate pages for each OXP, perhaps adding a prominent link to the 'Navy' page to these.

That would make sense to me: a "core game" Navy page, reflecting what the Navy is like in unmodified Oolite (i.e. all but invisible), and offshoots from there for any Navy OXPs.

[Diziet Sma]

That would make sense to me: a "core game" Navy page, reflecting what the Navy is like in unmodified Oolite (i.e. all but invisible), and offshoots from there for any Navy OXPs.

Agreed..

(and to D-S, this is what I meant by "canon".. an entry more about the 'core game' Navy, rather than one that was heavily edited by an individual OXP author, so to better fit in with his OXP..

[JazHaz]

If the wiki was to be adjusted in this way, I am likely to reverse the changes! So no, don't do it.

[Diziet Sma]

Not trying to be argumentative, but simply to understand your perspective..

Why do you feel that way, exactly?

I mean, the situation as-is currently reflects just one particular OXP, not the core game itself..

[Cody]

If the wiki was to be adjusted in this way, I am likely to reverse the changes! So no, don't do it.

That's somewhat cavalier, is that.

[Smivs]

If the wiki was to be adjusted in this way, I am likely to reverse the changes! So no, don't do it.

Can I respectfully ask why?
The Wiki is a collaborative effort and it is in everybodies interests to keep it as relevant as possible to the game - both the core game and OXPs that affect it. As such, changes should be made for the benefit of the community and with consensus, and not because one person doesn't agree with something!
And the suggestion is simply to re-instate the 'core game' Navy page, and then to link from it to the GN page (which will remain unchanged other than a link to the 'Navy' page) and to the (proposed) HIMSN page (and pages for any other OXPs that involve 'The Navy').
GN would still have its current page and the BB thread will still link to it, as would the readme (presumably) and the OXP list, so nothing will be lost or supressed, just put into context.

[Diogenese Senna]

[JazHaz]

If the wiki was to be adjusted in this way, I am likely to reverse the changes! So no, don't do it.

Can I respectfully ask why?

Because I'm a miserable b*****d!

Because I like the current OXP very much. Its definitely part of the canon (or even the cannons) of my Ooniverse!

[Cody]

For that matter, does anyone know where Selezen got his information about things like the 14 G1 sectors, and the 103 regular navy squadrons and 230+ reserve squadrons from anyway? Is that genuinely canon, or filler he created himself?

I suspect it's filler (or it's from fiction).

[Smivs]

Because I like the current OXP very much. Its definitely part of the canon (or even the cannons) of my Ooniverse!

As do many others, and we know (and respect) that. But that is not justification for hijacking a Wiki page that started life and was intended as a bit of background for the core game. As I understand it, the suggestion (as discussed above) is to reclaim the Navy page for the core game, then have separate pages for the Navy OXPs. This way everybody (particularly newcomers) will be able to distinguish between core Oolite and the OXPs that change it.
The problem with the current set-up is that the OXP is presented as canon which it is not. And Elite/Oolite canon must always be given priority - it is after all the Elite/Oolite wiki, not an OXP wiki - and as things stand we have a 'tail wagging the dog' situation which is genuinely not in anybody's interests.

[Disembodied]

Because I like the current OXP very much. Its definitely part of the canon (or even the cannons) of my Ooniverse!

The current Galactic Navy OXP won't change: it'll still be there. But other people are making another OXP, using their own interpretation of what the (all-but nonexistent in the core game) Navy is like. In these circumstances, I don't think it's possible for one or other interpretation to be set as canon. That can only end in one way ...

The fairest, easiest and best solution would be the one Smivs proposed: a core Navy page, with core game information on it, with links to both Navy OXPs on their own pages.