Split: Re-scaling experiment

[Norby]

Consider that an energy bank alone is probably on the scale of a small nuclear reactor and you'll start seeing where I'm coming from.
Also, many can carry enormous quanities of cargo, and that's without touching on how thick the Duralium hull needs to be to counter cosmic radiation.
So to me these sizes are not outrageous at all, rather fully justifiable, and far more realistic than many SciFi ships which are as powerful as a city, yet are little bigger than trucks!

My impression is similar. I vote to keep all models as is, and increase planet size (with sun) and lane lengths - 3x is good, more is better. If populator adds the current amount of ships only then player will not be stopped more times. Other (empty) distances are increased but torus is very powerful to skip these so the average travel time will not be increased by 3x, I guess below 1.5x. The number of masslocks is much more important.

A bit longer travel times is good either to sense "space is big" or to get back something from the much longer travels in original Elite.

I can imagine a few planets placed exceptionally far from the witchpoint which add to the immersion without making a long game boring. If every 10. planet placed 5-10 times farther than others then need to travel 1.5-2x distance in the total game. These systems need to be compensated with somewhat more ships also to get a bit more masslocks, but far not 5-10x, maybe 2x only. So the total game time will be increased slightly only but player sometimes will be in torus much longer to feel the distances, and maybe will plan his galactic route better next time to save his real time.

I vote also to keep meters displayed, which help players but oonits don't - only generate a new line into the FAQ about how many oonits are 1m. Modellers can adapt to the current situation but players needs SI units imho.

[Paradox]

My Thoughts: (you have been warned...)

Elite was released waaaaay back in 1984 (so masochistic to think about that). I don't think a lot of thought was being given at that time to the why's of everything in the game... Like why do cargo canisters have 5 sides making them VERY space inefficient let alone hard to stack... or why are stations the shape they are, instead of torus shaped, to take advantage of centrifugal force as artificial gravity? I could go on, but I will spare you. I think that they were designing a game and all thought was focused on making it work, and making it fun and playable, not about rationalizing everything. They left that up to all the fans and fan-fiction writers to do that later on in books and such. I think it was the fans that really created the Elite universe. The Creators were just making a game...
Then came Oolite. Its' mission was to re-create that game as faithfully as possible. Mission accomplished! Job well done (standing ovation)! Except for one minor little nothing when "feet" was changed to "meters". But then... (dun dun dun!), you went BEYOND! Beyond the limits imposed by 1980s technology/time/money constraints, and proposed to (gasp) improve the game with updated graphics and other new-fangled thingies! And this was where the Gates of Hades were thrown wide open! For we have no budget, we have no deadlines nor investors. We have technology that could not even be imagined back in the 80s! By allowing US to create oxps, you have, by definition, abandoned all attempts to "recreate Elite", and can only now say "based on". This game is no longer Elite. It is not Frontier or any of the others. It is Oolite, and it is wonderful... except for one tiny minor little thing that has now grown into an ugly big monster that we keep seeing time and time again. It is why we are all here posting to this thread faster than we can read and keep up with it.

If you are a "Die-hard" Elite fan, then you should be bothered... If you write oxps, you should be upset... The Creators decreed that "Henceforth, the ship know as the Cobra MK3 shall be of 65 cubits... err... feet, make that feet, in length...". But this is no longer the case in Oolite. Nay my brothers, do not stone nor crucify those "New Creators" who have endeavored and toiled long and hard to bring you to the Nirvana that is Elite as Oolite. Instead, help them to repent their sin, that tiny little change from "feet" to "meters". I do not condemn them their desire to do away with such an archaic measurement as "the foot". Verily, I say unto you, embrace the new standard of measurement of the New Creators, and leave the holy "meter" as the default measurement. However, do not blaspheme the Original Creators by changing the scale of their glorious gifts!

My point is this... umm... hmm... I had one a few minutes ago, where did it go? Not enough sleep, that's my problem... Where are my pills? Honey, have you seen my pills? Oh yes, don't bother saying that the ships are the size they are because Elite... We can prove you wrong. Also, don't build your temple on quicksand... err.. don't build a game with a broken foundation because the cracks are going to show up eventually, and the the problem will just keep getting bigger and bigger. And even if it doesn't, at the very least, it will never go away, as this forum has shown. Fix, don't patch... And brush your teeth after every meal! Look both ways before crossing the landing bay? Oh hi honey, you found my pills! Gotta go now.....

[Diziet Sma]

There is a way to solve this… fork the source on Github and make the modifications you want.

Seriously, what is the real problem here?

Maybe you missed it.. that is, in effect, exactly what Redspear proposes to do..

All the rest of this, is simply discussion of just what needs doing, the best approach to same, and some jumping up and down by those who don't think it needs doing in the first place..

[cim]

Code: Select all

@@ -1272,7 +1272,7 @@ shaderBindingTarget:(id<OOWeakReferenceSupport>)target
                                        if (![scanner scanFloat:&z])  failFlag =
                                        if (!failFlag)
                                        {
-                                               _vertices[j] = make_vector(x, y,, z);
+                                               _vertices[j] = make_vector(0.3*x, 0.3*y, 0.3*z);
                                        }
                                        else
                                        {

So I did a quick test: the shortest possible way to make all the ships as large as they would be if they were 60 feet long rather than 60 metres long.

Things it immediately exposes:
- don't forget to change the subentity, weapon, internal view, external view, and exhaust positions when you rescale a ship mesh.
- it has to be accompanied by a similar reduction in ship speed, or you end up with a permanent injector fight, as predicted, which is not much fun (even less so if anyone actually has injectors...). If you do that, it then takes a minute and a half at full speed to reach the nav buoy from the station. You probably want to move it closer...
- you should probably accompany that with a similar reduction in laser range, or you spend most of your time firing at pixels - it's like giving everyone (underpowered) military lasers...
- if you don't want clearing a mass-lock to take all week, you have to also shrink scanner range to 1/3 now you've reduced speed.
(and that's just the bits which are incredibly obvious from a short fight against a few Vipers just outside the station)

Definitely far easier to make the planets 3.3 times bigger, and declare that 1 unit = 1 foot (or even not make the planets 3.3 times bigger and declare that 1 unit = 1 foot. It's not as if planets 40km in radius are significantly more sensible than planets 40kf in radius)

[Norby]

1 unit in any modeling program = 1 meter, but as soon as you import that into Oolite, it is only equal to 1/3 of a meter but only if your talking about the ships.

I do not understand, nor encountered with this problem during ship development.

I made a ship in Wings3D with 72 unit length, there is a "model size: 55 x 55 x 72" line in the .dat file. The length in the game seems to be 72m both regarding collisionRadius or boundingBox.z and if I place another ship 200m far from me with vectorForward.multiply(200) then my distance meter show about 140m (due to excluding the collisionradius of the other ship) and I see it about 3 times far from me than my ship's length in a far top view so all of these seems to be in meters.

Your problem regarding Falcon is coming from the real size of this ship (25x8x34m) which is smaller than an adder (30x8x45m). The current Falcon OXP about doubled it (54x22x75m) to get the size of a small Cobra Mk I, which is a workaround but I can accept it.

More importantly I can accept an 1:1 import of Falcon also if it is similar with the adder in strength and cargo capacity. I think ships in Oolite is not too large but ships in other universes usually smaller so here can get small energy and other vaules and can appear in its original sizes, so it is not a reason to shrink the current ships.

Larger ships like Corellian Corvette as cim said can arrive without problems, 3x2x5m fighters can not (without multipliers) due to nonexistents here. It is possible to create a new tiny class: need to scale down the firepower also, maybe to 1 from the current 15, etc. (cargo is not a problem: 0 ), so I do not think the missing small fighters is a reason to change the current ships, I think there is not any unresolvable reason.

[Capt. Reynolds]

Wow.

You know what? I play Oolite. It works.

I don't care if thing X is eleventy-three times bigger/smaller/more purple than it "should" be or not. I don't care if things from fictional universe A don't match up with things in fictional universe B without having to adjust their scale or specifications. The game works.


Merry Christmas!

[Captain Tylor]

Wow.

You know what? I play Oolite. It works.

I don't care if thing X is eleventy-three times bigger/smaller/more purple than it "should" be or not. I don't care if things from fictional universe A don't match up with things in fictional universe B without having to adjust their scale or specifications. The game works.


Merry Christmas!

+1

[Paradox]

[quote="Capt. Reynolds"]Wow.

You know what? I play Oolite. It works.

I don't care if thing X is eleventy-three times bigger/smaller/more purple than it "should" be or not. I don't care if things from fictional universe A don't match up with things in fictional universe B without having to adjust their scale or specifications. The game works.


Merry Christmas! [/quot]

Wow, you know what? As a ship builder, it does affect me, and others... But thank you for submitting such a positive and helpful post. We will surely let you know if we need more of this type of sage advice.

[Paradox]

For those of us who are working on, and interested in this project/experiment, here is a scaled down, core version, Anaconda Scaled.

DOWNLOAD HERE

Flew for about 5 minutes so far to check weapon/view positions etc..

1. Yes, 1/3 normal Anaconda speed is slooow! };]
2. Attacking another Anaconda and convoy will still get you killed! };]
3. Why is the scoop in the umm... posterior of the ship? Haven't tried scooping yet.

"chance" = 1.0; (I still had to edit my save file to get one after trying 4 lvl12 and up planets to find one...?)
price = 100; (just for convenience sake...)
max_flight_speed = 47; (slooooooow };])

All other setting are straight copies from core 'conda other than weapon/view positions

[earl sleek]

Wow.

You know what? I play Oolite. It works.

I don't care if thing X is eleventy-three times bigger/smaller/more purple than it "should" be or not. I don't care if things from fictional universe A don't match up with things in fictional universe B without having to adjust their scale or specifications. The game works.


Merry Christmas!

+2

[Capt. Reynolds]

Wow, you know what? As a ship builder, it does affect me, and others...

I can't see how. As long as you know that in order to match up with the pre-existing scales, a ship needs to be in a putative range of x to y metres, what does it matter if that range is 5-20 or 50-200? Or even 500-2000? As long as nothing seems wildly out of place (such as cargo pods being bigger than the ship that drops them or similar), the Ooniverse can cope.

Yes, the Oolite universe is fundamentally flawed. So is the Star Trek universe. And the Star Wars universe (which is also subject to revision every time George Lucas gets a bit of time to himself). Every fictional universe is - rules get bent, broken and ignored all the time, in order to serve the purpose for which that universe was created, be it storytelling or gameplay.

In your big ol' post a few back, you seemed to get hung up on the word "recreation" (in the "create again" sense, not the "Parks and..." sense) as you said here:

Then came Oolite. Its' mission was to re-create that game as faithfully as possible.

And then:

By allowing US to create oxps, you have, by definition, abandoned all attempts to "recreate Elite", and can only now say "based on". This game is no longer Elite.

But, to quote the Oolite main page from the wiki:

Oolite is a space sim game, available for Mac OS X, Linux and Windows.

It was written by Giles Williams as a response to the withdrawal of Elite: The New Kind from the internet. Although inspired by the work of Christian Pinder, following David Braben and Ian Bell, the work is an independent interpretation and expansion of the original game.

Oolite is designed as a small game that is easy for users to pick up and expand upon. Almost every aspect of the game can be modified using simple, free graphics packages and text-editors.

(Emphasis mine)

It says right there - Oolite was never supposed to re-create Elite as faithfully as possible. So feet became metres in the ship dimensions? Fine - an Elite Cobra Mk3 is a whisker under 20m, an Oolite one is 65m. There have been plenty of other issues like the scale one that get raised all the time - for example, the Anaconda's cargo capacity. Apparently it was down to a misread note (whether that story's apocryphal or not I don't know) and should have been a much lower figure, on a par with other ships. It's still been left as huge, though, and it's not doing anyone any harm. Every so often someone moans about it, but it always peters out after a bit because it simply doesn't matter in terms of gameplay - which is, and should always be, the primary concern.

[Paradox]

Wow, you know what? As a ship builder, it does affect me, and others...

I can't see how. As long as you know that in order to match up with the pre-existing scales, a ship needs to be in a putative range of x to y metres, what does it matter if that range is 5-20 or 50-200? Or even 500-2000? As long as nothing seems wildly out of place (such as cargo pods being bigger than the ship that drops them or similar), the Ooniverse can cope.

Yes, the Oolite universe is fundamentally flawed. So is the Star Trek universe. And the Star Wars universe (which is also subject to revision every time George Lucas gets a bit of time to himself). Every fictional universe is - rules get bent, broken and ignored all the time, in order to serve the purpose for which that universe was created, be it storytelling or gameplay.

In your big ol' post a few back, you seemed to get hung up on the word "recreation" (in the "create again" sense, not the "Parks and..." sense) as you said here:

Then came Oolite. Its' mission was to re-create that game as faithfully as possible.

And then:

By allowing US to create oxps, you have, by definition, abandoned all attempts to "recreate Elite", and can only now say "based on". This game is no longer Elite.

But, to quote the Oolite main page from the wiki:

Oolite is a space sim game, available for Mac OS X, Linux and Windows.

It was written by Giles Williams as a response to the withdrawal of Elite: The New Kind from the internet. Although inspired by the work of Christian Pinder, following David Braben and Ian Bell, the work is an independent interpretation and expansion of the original game.

Oolite is designed as a small game that is easy for users to pick up and expand upon. Almost every aspect of the game can be modified using simple, free graphics packages and text-editors.

(Emphasis mine)

It says right there - Oolite was never supposed to re-create Elite as faithfully as possible. So feet became metres in the ship dimensions? Fine - an Elite Cobra Mk3 is a whisker under 20m, an Oolite one is 65m. There have been plenty of other issues like the scale one that get raised all the time - for example, the Anaconda's cargo capacity. Apparently it was down to a misread note (whether that story's apocryphal or not I don't know) and should have been a much lower figure, on a par with other ships. It's still been left as huge, though, and it's not doing anyone any harm. Every so often someone moans about it, but it always peters out after a bit because it simply doesn't matter in terms of gameplay - which is, and should always be, the primary concern.

Sounds like all our American politicians "Sure its wrong, sure it's broke, but it works right? So why fix it?" If, you are happy "as long as it works", then what are you and others throwing such a hissyfit about?

Scenario 1: Our experiments show that addressing the issue cannot be done or would require far too much effort to fix (the most likely scenerio).
Outcome: You still go on happily playing Oolite as you always have because "it works".

Scenario 2: The scale issue is corrected (hazzah!)! All ships are to scale, and everything works as it was originally intended to.
Outcome: You still go on happily playing Oolite as you always have because "it works", and now modelers are happy as well! Win Win! Right?

"...In your big ol' post a few back, you seemed to get hung up on the word "recreation"..."
Looks like it's my turn to "remove tongue from cheek" hey Smivs? };]

"...the Ooniverse can cope..."
Some of us are not content to "cope" we like to "fix" Want to help?

"...Yes, the Oolite universe is fundamentally flawed..."
Ah, so you agree! That's great! Want to help fix it?

"...So feet became metres in the ship dimensions? Fine - an Elite Cobra Mk3 is a whisker under 20m, an Oolite one is 65m..."
Pretty big screw up hunh? Want to help fix it?

"...There have been plenty of other issues like the scale one that get raised all the time..."
Yes, yes there are.. Want to help fix them?

"...Every so often someone moans about it, but it always peters out after a bit..."
Ya, your right.. as long as those who complain eventually go away, then everything must be juuust fine. Want to help us fix that?

Oh, and Merry Xmas!

[Paradox]

Ok, and now here is the Scaled CobraMK3 (again, this is the core ship with changes only to scale, view/weapon positions, availability, cost, and speed).

DOWNLOAD HERE

A little faster than the Anaconda, but still sloow. };]
I killed 3 Galcop Vipers, and a DTT Tomahawk (since I edited my save file, mine was fully iron assed and kitted out), and was able to scoop 1 escape pod and 2 other items no problem... Flew just above them like normal and slurp! Outside of the cargo canister looking fairly large, nothing felt different there.
I was also able to dock at full speed without worrying about spin! };]

max_flight_speed = 117;

Any preferences for the next conversion?

[Diziet Sma]

- it has to be accompanied by a similar reduction in ship speed, or you end up with a permanent injector fight, as predicted, which is not much fun (even less so if anyone actually has injectors...). If you do that, it then takes a minute and a half at full speed to reach the nav buoy from the station. You probably want to move it closer...
- you should probably accompany that with a similar reduction in laser range, or you spend most of your time firing at pixels - it's like giving everyone (underpowered) military lasers...
- if you don't want clearing a mass-lock to take all week, you have to also shrink scanner range to 1/3 now you've reduced speed.

I think those were all points that had been mentioned, but it's good to have them confirmed.

[Zireael]

Definitely far easier to make the planets 3.3 times bigger, and declare that 1 unit = 1 foot (or even not make the planets 3.3 times bigger and declare that 1 unit = 1 foot. It's not as if planets 40km in radius are significantly more sensible than planets 40kf in radius)

I think I suggested increasing planet size as a solution to this conundrum back upthread.

Any quick code for making the planet 3x as big and changing the unit to feet?