Progress

[Disembodied]

Thinking about this some more … given that slowing the station's rotation doesn't make much difference to how hard it is to dock; and given that it would be a good thing to help give a sense of difference to different kinds of systems; and given that it might be a good thing to make it a bit easier for brand-new players to pick up the knack of docking; how about this?

Systems of TL 8 and up have docking lights, similar to Thargoid's [wiki]Neo-Docklights OXP[/wiki] (maybe systems with TL 12 and up have fancy ones that change colour, whereas the lights on TLs 8, 9 and 10 are just white).

Systems of TL 7 to TL 4 stay as they are.

Systems of TL 3 and lower don't even have buoys. Players have to line up the old-fashioned way, by eye.

This, of course, could all be done by OXP; but if we genuinely want to help new players get into the game, I think it's worth considering building something like this in to the core. It shouldn't make any difference at all to experienced players (except for making low-tech dockings just that little bit more challenging), but it could be a genuine help for new players - at least on their first jump away from Lave.

[Smivs]

My 2 Cr-worth.
The buoy was introduced by Oolite and is not an original 'Elite' feature. However it is an established part of the game and is currently present at all main stations. This is a good thing and should be kept as it is. Indeed I would also favour adding them to Hermits in the core game for all sorts of reasons. If this was done, in time I would also like to see all static OXP dockables given a buoy as well, for consistency.
The main 'difficulty' with docking is alignment, and the buoy plays a very useful role here, which should be enough for new players, with a bit of guidance. I wouldn't favour different arrangements for different station types or gov't/TL types. Nor do I see any need or desire for docking lights etc.
The rotation is not much of an issue with respect to docking, but does have a big visual impact, so I would favour slowing them a bit. A standard slower rotation would be fine, or this could be done depending on station type, with Coriolis being fastest, then the Dodo and the Ico being the slowest.

[Cody]

I've tried removing main station nav buoys, but the cops take exception to me doing it - and when I next visit, they've replaced them anyway.

I wouldn't be in favour of rock hermits having buoys by default - they should be a little tricky to find.

[Disembodied]

Personally, I wouldn't want any buoys or other docking assistance at Rock Hermits; they're supposed to be isolated, out-of-the-way places, and docking with one should have a very different feel from docking with a main station. It's the difference between arriving at a big commercial harbour, and dropping anchor at a small cove on a little island somewhere. There's already too much consistency, I think, between different locations in the game; I'd prefer a greater range of look and feel across different stations, system types and tech levels.

[JazHaz]

Personally, I wouldn't want any buoys or other docking assistance at Rock Hermits; they're supposed to be isolated, out-of-the-way places, and docking with one should have a very different feel from docking with a main station. It's the difference between arriving at a big commercial harbour, and dropping anchor at a small cove on a little island somewhere. There's already too much consistency, I think, between different locations in the game; I'd prefer a greater range of look and feel across different stations, system types and tech levels.

As I said the other day:

Not 100% about this, but I think in vanilla Oolite there isn't a buoy for hermits. The buoy gets added by the Rock Hermit Locator OXP.

[cim]

It's worth taking a look at the (generally very positive) comments about Oolite on the TV Tropes site. Docking - specifically, how hard ("Nintendo Hard") it is - is mentioned several times.

Also - see "Clown Car Base" on the same page - the scale clearly didn't convince the author. Anyway, there seems to be a fairly strong opinion in favour of the stations being slower, for various reasons, so I've done that. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to that discussion.

On docking difficulty: I got tired of the various hypotheses and asked someone who had never played Elite (or indeed any space/flightsim) before to try docking, while I watched (with the slower stations). If anyone else is able to try this experiment, please let us know how it goes!

Anyway, out of eight attempts:

• first failed due to not understanding 3-D coordinates
• second failed due to not realising the Cobra III cannot fit in sideways (pity: the approach was otherwise good)

At this point I started giving answers to questions like "how do I fly this ship?" beyond the literal effects of pressing particular buttons.

• next two were launch, turn around, dock, and both successful
• next one was from a "realistic" start position, and would have worked had a Cobra Mk I not chosen that moment to launch and rammed them into the side of the docking bay. Now that it's possible to save at rock hermits so fugitives have somewhere to go, I wonder if making clearance the default for main stations is sensible?
• next one failed due to lack of practice with the controls and disorientation in 3-D space

At this point I gave two key hints on how to dock safely.

• next two dockings were successful.

The successful dockings, incidentally, were all done without scraping the shields.

Conclusions:

• telling the player that their rotation needs to be matched is a fair early hint. It's not obvious in-game that you won't fit in sideways ... or, if you haven't thought to check the external views, which way up your ship is to start with.
• slower rotation really helps genuine beginners, for a reason that I should have remembered from my own early days. There's an effect of the rotation, if you're trying to both match the rotation and correct an off-centre approach at the same time, which is quite disorienting if you're not used to it.
• the hint to "fly out to the buoy and come in from there" helps a lot with getting approximately lined up, obviously. Everyone was right about the importance of being approximately on-axis to start with.
• the second important hint is "if you can't see all four walls of the bay, point your nose past the ones you can see for a bit", because otherwise you don't get from "approximately" to "really" on-axis. Not everyone will need that hint, of course.
• when you're docking at about 0.01LM, the station seems huge when you're on final approach.
• an in-game tutorial, with someone talking you through the docking process (like [wiki]Traffic_Control_OXP[/wiki]), is probably the best solution. Docking videos of good approaches are all very well but a beginner won't know what to be looking for as good practice. The player is supposed to start the game as an inexperienced but qualified pilot: an optional tutorial to get to that stage seems a good answer.

I don't think docking needs making any easier to fly than that, and the emotional reward from the first few successes is still there (yes, even with the slower stations), so I think that's balanced about right too. The main difficulty of it is that it requires some moderately precise flying when the player really might not even have the hang of flying safely in open space, and it's something you unavoidably have to do very early on. That's inevitable, but I think a proper tutorial would help with that.

I was considering HUD indicators to help with the approach, but I think by the time you can fly well enough to do as they say you can fly well enough not to need them.


Removing the nav buoy in low-end systems, perhaps in Anarchy systems where they just get shot up again if replaced, and in poor systems which can't afford to maintain them, is an interesting idea. It does perhaps draw attention to the oddity of the ASC that it has two beacons that are effectively for 'main station', one of which is only detectable near the planet, and one of which relies on a separate object. If the buoy isn't consistently there, then I think we'd need to rethink that.

[Cody]

Now that it's possible to save at rock hermits so fugitives have somewhere to go, I wonder if making clearance the default for main stations is sensible?

<dons his pondering sombrero> Often being one of the aforementioned fugitives - at first thought, I might just favour that.

[Fatleaf]

Not sure if this has been discussed, if it has I apologise and let me know. I have yet to fully read this thread.

Is it possible to fix the cargo capacity of the player Adder to have the same value as the NPC version that being 5TC. It seems daft they are different.

[cim]

It's certainly possible. A full list of differences between player and NPC versions in the current development shipdata.plist:

Adder has 2TC for player, 5TC for NPCs
5TC would let it fit a cabin. We could also make the player ship 2->5 with large cargo bay. 2TC is the capacity in the Elite manual, so maybe it should be the NPC ship that shrinks. (We could say that ships that small are considered "cargo-less" by pirates because the chance of getting anything useful out of them is minimal, so there could be advantages too)

Anaconda has 750TC for player, 250TC for NPCs
This is new in 1.79 and because in this version the cargo carried by NPC ships is generated in advance, and generating 750TC takes a while even with some optimisations (and there are virtually no circumstances where NPC cargo over 150TC is relevant). "Canonically" the other 500TC on the NPC ships is filled with larger items, passenger cabins, and other non-recoverable non-dumpable cargo: they aren't actually smaller.

Cobra III has 0.35LM for player, 0.30LM for NPCs
This is likely to stay as-is for now, due to the problems with slower ships and masslocks. The implications of allowing just about every pirate ship to keep pace with the player also need considering. 0.30 is of course the original value. 1.79 does have a wider spacelane than 1.77, so maybe this can be looked at again, but not right now.

Fer-de-Lance has thrust 25 for player, 36 for NPC.
As with all player ships the thrust is then multiplied by 7, though, so the difference is largely irrelevant. Still, that seems surprisingly low (of the playable ships, only the Python and Anaconda are lower, and the Cobra I is equal). This is probably sensible to unify at the NPC value.

[CheeseRedux]

If you are a new pilot, now is your best chance to practice docking maneuvers with the space station at Lave. The Lave Orbit Space Authority permits an unlimited number of practice runs by newly appointed pilots, and does not charge. This facility is suspended during attack, or when the Coriolis station has no free docking space.

Which leads to the rather obvious suggestion (and the apologies if it's been mentioned already): How's about making Lave into a proper training ground for rookies? I've no ideas about any specific aids, but one thing should be easy enough to avoid: The head-on collision described by cim above. Whenever a fresh pilot launches from the Lave station, put in an automatic 5-10-15 minute launch blocker for anything but emergencies. (Let's face it, if there's an furball in the making, someone with a pulse laser and no docking skills is toast anyway.) What's a fresh pilot? Zero kills would be an easy metric to use.

Anyway, telling new players to "learn to dock here, because it won't be as easy elsewhere", and then getting rid of (some) nasty random things plus perhaps give a leg up with the actual docking would fit in perfectly with canon.

[Fatleaf]

It's certainly possible. A full list of differences between player and NPC versions in the current development shipdata.plist:

Adder has 2TC for player, 5TC for NPCs
5TC would let it fit a cabin. We could also make the player ship 2->5 with large cargo bay. 2TC is the capacity in the Elite manual, so maybe it should be the NPC ship that shrinks. (We could say that ships that small are considered "cargo-less" by pirates because the chance of getting anything useful out of them is minimal, so there could be advantages too)

For a cargo extension to increase the Adder from 2 to 5 TC I think would be to unrealistic considering the size of the ship. Gong from 3 to 5 would possibly be more believable. But I don't think an extension fits for such a small ship anyway and would like to see the Adder having a 5TC cargo capacity with no extension available. So it would then be a viable choice to start the game with as a passenger boat. I made enough to get a my S9 doing that.

The idea of some ships being considered "cargo-less" is an intriguing idea that I like. Escort ships also would need to be considered for this also. I would like to think that with the possibility of saving at Rock Hermits then pirates would essentially consider most, if not all, Rock Hermits as safe havens and would not attack the mining ships. But that wouldn't necessarily be true in all cases as to quote a film series about pirates "Blooming pirates!"

Yet to think about the other proposals.

[Cody]

... the possibility of saving at Rock Hermits then pirates would essentially consider most, if not all, Rock Hermits as safe havens and would not attack the mining ships.

That's pretty much how I've always thought of it in immersion mode - pirates (mostly) ignore miners (and Adders).
I've been jumped by bandits in asteroid swarms many times, while a miner is happily fraggin' rocks in the vicinity.

[Diziet Sma]

If you are a new pilot, now is your best chance to practice docking maneuvers with the space station at Lave. The Lave Orbit Space Authority permits an unlimited number of practice runs by newly appointed pilots, and does not charge. This facility is suspended during attack, or when the Coriolis station has no free docking space.

Which leads to the rather obvious suggestion (and the apologies if it's been mentioned already): How's about making Lave into a proper training ground for rookies? I've no ideas about any specific aids, but one thing should be easy enough to avoid: The head-on collision described by cim above. Whenever a fresh pilot launches from the Lave station, put in an automatic 5-10-15 minute launch blocker for anything but emergencies. (Let's face it, if there's an furball in the making, someone with a pulse laser and no docking skills is toast anyway.) What's a fresh pilot? Zero kills would be an easy metric to use.

Anyway, telling new players to "learn to dock here, because it won't be as easy elsewhere", and then getting rid of (some) nasty random things plus perhaps give a leg up with the actual docking would fit in perfectly with canon.

Me likes this proposal very much.

[Redspear]

There's already too much consistency, I think, between different locations in the game; I'd prefer a greater range of look and feel across different stations, system types and tech levels.

Very much agree with this. <heresy>It's what stopped me playing Elite in the end: systems were just more or less dangerous than each other</heresy>.
My first post on this forum (https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14756) was in part an attempt to address this.

Of course, Oolite is much more variable (or can be) than Elite, largely through OXPs (which is probably apt). Government type made a big difference even in Elite and excellent OXPs like Commies and Dictators have (to my mind) enhanced the 'flavour' of those systems. Tech Level was (and is) also significant.

I see two similarities in particular however, that still predominate:
1. Witchpoint to Station run - i.e. same basic approach, just with different interruptions...
2. Dockables are much the same once you're docked

Now there are exceptions (Hoopy Casinos, sunskimming, missions etc.), and you don't have to dock at the main station, but for the most part (especially early game) it's a case of rinse and repeat.
But hey, that's the game right? And a very fine one it is too, but even simple stuff like taking away the buoy in some systems (as per Disembodied's suggestion), or requiring docking permission only in the more 'lawful' systems, could make a welcome change to the feel of a system...

Oh, hello...
...that's reminded me of some ideas I had for varying systems based on the system description string:

Beset by Civil War - chance of the main station being Griff's damaged coriolis (as featured on the oolite.org gallery); refugee ships, escort requests; renegade vipers?; shipyard prices high and supplies very limited?
Deadly Disease - medical ships around the station (the new medical anaconda might be nice, or maybe something even larger...); perhaps some form of (very brief) quarantine or checking procedure when you dock?
Night Life - Griff also had an early attempt at a coriolis station (if I'm not mistaken) that was covered in advertisments and neon signs (and no, I don't mean the con-store), this should add some atmosphere to approaching the station, maybe with some suitable chatter too... Is this a bad place to get maintainance done because there's too much partying going on?
Zero-G Sports - I've mentioned Zieman's excellent Habitat station elsewhere (must get around to doing something with that...)
Sit-coms - Rorschachhamster made a satellites.oxp that might make some kind of sense in these systems.
Love of Tourists - There's the liners.oxp (does that already restrict it's appearances to 'tourist' systems?)
etc.

I think I'm derailing a bit here but if we could do for each of the system info variables what the original Elite did with system government and Tech Level then we'd have a much more varied Ooniverse.

...I'll shut up now and get back to my condition scripts

[Celt]

On the subject of docking and buoys, it would seem that an alternative (and more real-life likely) docking aid would be something like the PAPI system used IRL today at airports, where pilots get a series of red and white lights which change colour depending where the pilot is on the glide slope . . . All red = too low . . . All white = too high . . . Do this in two dimensions and the pilot would be able to lock the centerline much easier and then just has to get the rotation right. aircraft carriers have similar systems called the Optical Landing System, or meatball . . .

Probably very OXPable . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_ ... _indicator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_landing_system