Proposed wiki page - OXPs for new players.

[Thargoid]

Can I suggest that this list may be best compiled by either one or a small group of newish players so it's from experience. But most importantly by person/people who have not written OXPs or been involved in any such development to give an impartial list (insofar that this may be actually possible at all).

I speak here from knowing how easy it is to be tempted to suggest your own work in such scenarios, even when less than ideally suited..

[Cpt]

I want to install this:

'toxic' list

[spara]

Don't know, if I have understood something wrong, and if I have please correct me, but isn't this list meant to be for players looking to install their first oxps. Right? So that rather than going through the big list of oxps they have a few that are quite common and are generally thought to not change the game play.

If this is the case, then I would go with the thought: "What oxps could ship with the game?"

My list would be quite short:

1. Replacement shipset (This list can be big or small as long as they are easily installable)
2. Replacement planet textures / extra planets, stars & nebulas and system features
3. Replacement UI (BGS)
4. Enhanced descriptions and added lore to give food for the mind (Famous planets, Random shipnames, Snoopers)

But if the point of this list is to be a general list of neutral oxps that the new player chooses from, then I'm seriously on the wrong track here and it's better for me to shut up .

[Smivs]

Can I suggest that this list may be best compiled by either one or a small group of newish players so it's from experience.

Input from newer players might well be helpful. Particularly those who have fallen into the trap this project is intended to prevent.

But most importantly by person/people who have not written OXPs or been involved in any such development to give an impartial list (insofar that this may be actually possible at all).

I speak here from knowing how easy it is to be tempted to suggest your own work in such scenarios, even when less than ideally suited..

I am acutely aware of the number of my OXPs in the list. Much of my catalogue is neutral (safe) by its nature and may therefore be appropriate. But I am also aware that this might appear self-serving in some ways and so I have been very careful when deciding which if any of my OXPs go in, and also why I am so keen to make this a community project.
One of my first questions in this thread was asking if the slower station rotation in Delightful Docking would be considered significant enough to disqualify it. If I'm not sure I'll ask. If I am sure, I'll act, as I did when I decided to remove one of my OXPs (Aliens) from the original list. The only OXP removed so far.

I seem to have a firm idea of what this list should be which is different from many others it seems. I also accept that I am probably too involved in the OXP community to lead this project objectively, so perhaps It's time for me to step back a bit and see what happens.

[ZygoUgo]

Thankyou for adding me!
Nebulea and links updated!

[Svengali]

*Grins* Even this group will have to agree on criteria .-) And how likely is it that new Commanders can create this list at all? It needs a lot of time to test and get a feeling for OXPs and it needs some experience to see which OXP does exactly what. Still - their input would be valuable.

Just a thought - another way could be to collect criteria, then setting up one or more polls with options "yes" and "no" for the entries. If an option has reached a threshold when the Poll runs out the criteria is set and the list can be compiled. It will still be controversial, but at least supported by the majority.

[JazHaz]

I thought we'd agreed that the pizza and jellies should be removed? They're still there.

[UK_Eliter]

Good idea this list.

How about adding DarklSoul's DarkSoul_Nebulae (download here)? I use it and think it is good.

[Smivs]

I thought we'd agreed that the pizza and jellies should be removed? They're still there.

I don't think anything had been agreed to be honest.

My concept was for a page that new players could visit where they would find a list of nearly all the OXPs that would not affect gameplay or game balance. This would allow them a wide choice from which they could safely draw.
However, applying this criteria very strictly would have meant that the following OXPs should not feature:-
Griff's Shipset (Station bundle slows station rotation)
Liners (Dockable with markets different to main station)
Delightful Docking (slow station rotation)
Escort Formations (Makes it easier to distinguish pirate packs from civilian convoys)
I do not feel that these OXPs fall so far outside the criteria that they should be excluded. All the other OXPs originally listed fulfill the criteria for the list and were valid for inclusion, along with many others not yet added.

Unfortunately some members appear to want a censored list where only a few OXPs are offered to newcomers. I completely disagree with this approach as it un-necessarily limits the number of OXPs that newbies will be told are 'safe'. It also completely corrupts the purpose of the proposed list from being a listing of suitable OXPs to being merely the results of a popularity contest based on criteria other than whether the OXP is 'safe'. That is not something I am interested in participating in.
I have therefore decided to abandon this project. The links to the new page have been removed, and the new page now simply states itself to be a WIP.
If anybody else is brave enough to take-up this project, please PM me and I will be able to give you the list as it was at the time it was pulled.

[spara]

Sorry to hear that Smivs . I think you were on to something with the list and I wish you would consider not cancelling it. I fear that I totally missed your point on the list and partly caused the cancellation. Sorry about that. I now see that you wanted to create a list of oxps that have none or very small impact on game balance so that new players can have a sort of sub list of the original oxp list to choose from.

It is hard to make decisions about which oxps would fall into this criteria, but it is easier than trying to think what oxps would be "good" for a starting Jameson.

Jellies and your Pizzas are quite harmless, so I think they'll fit into this criteria quite nicely. And Beer Cooler too .

Maybe the list could be organized with the categories from the main list. The list could introduce the category and list the oxps that can be safely installed. Then it would serve as an introduction to the main list.

So, if there is common agreement that this is a list of oxps that have none or very small impact on game balance, then we can throw aside the thoughts about mood of the game and such and concentrate on suggesting oxps that fit into that criteria.

[JazHaz]

These lists are always going to contain items that people don't agree with. That's why myself and others have lists already.

I think that this page should be added to the Player Recommendations section of the [wiki]OXP[/wiki] page.

[Svengali]

So, if there is common agreement that this is a list of oxps that have none or very small impact on game balance, then we can throw aside the thoughts about mood of the game and such and concentrate on suggesting oxps that fit into that criteria.

But what kind of criteria? The only concrete thing I've read was 'OXP in G1'.
All other things are not clearly defined, e.g 'impact on game balance' and people will use it with different definitions and in different contexts.

[Thargoid]

One thing I have to ask - what specifically is the point of this page?

• To give new players a softer (easier) start in the game, to lower the learning curve and keep their interest longer to "get hooked" on Oolite and not scare them off by being too difficult (too many docking splats for example)?
• To showcase what the game can do, in terms of visual appearance and general "wow" factor.
• To offer a variety of things to do around G1 to broaden their options and keep things interesting.

I ask as those three are distinct cases, and the relevant OXPs would be different for each (with some overlap in some cases). For example new shipsets (Griff's et al) are good for #2, but have no place in #1 or #3. Similarly there are plenty of G1 missions (Long Way Round etc) which fit #3, but not #2 and arguable over #1.

For #1 there are a number of OXPs (my Lave Academy and Traffic Control, plus ones like Delightful Docking) which fit, in the sense that they would probably be temporary installs until the player got used to the game, skilled themselves up and then maybe dumped them.

There are also the wider ones like BGS and maybe New Cargoes, which certainly fit #2 but more fall into the "why aren't these in the core game?" category, which would also probably include Random Ship Names and Random Hits (cat #3) and Griff's shipset (cat #1) although there are many newer authors like Shipbuilder, Staer9 and a few others who also make visually stunning ships.

I get the vibe that different people have different views on this, which is making some of the OXP choices seem odd to others (and sorry, if someone showed me Oolite and used giant space pizzas as a serious recommendation of what it could do I'd dump the game as being frivolous, especially if I was looking for "today's Elite").[/color]

[spara]

I would say that the point is that the current oxp list is quite long and it can be hard for a new player to filter out the ones he or she should try. It seems that usually they end up here asking and we give them some regular answers and then there's some fresh oxp maker advertising his/hers newest creation etc etc.

Many games use some sort of rankings for mods but for Oolite that idea has been discarded before. And I think that is a good thing as it removes the comparison competition giving more room for experimental oxps too.

So the answer here in my opinion is to make the full oxp list more readable, making it easier to filter stuff out. I just really don't know how. I can feel it's cumbersome and hard to read, but find it hard to figure out how to improve it. Maybe add some new categories (trading/markets is needed), maybe ships should be grouped by maker, like Griff does, maybe there should be a column indicating the impact on balance or something. In another context, I would say that the volume of the content has grown so much that a simple spreadsheet solution works no more and a database solution would be preferred.

I know this is not a new thing and has been discussed before, but maybe bringing this up again makes someone to have a fresh idea.

Or maybe the list is good as it is and should not be touched at all? I have no trouble navigating the list, I know it like my own pockets .

[Diziet Sma]

Spara makes some good points..

The thing is, as more and more OXPs continue to be made (and I expect the new features coming in 1.79 will result in a rash of new OXPs) the "master OXP list" is going to become more and more unwieldy, and thus more and more confusing for newcomers..

So, painful as it may be, at some point we are going to have to bite the bullet and try to come up with a way of making the OXP scene a bit easier to get to grips with. Yes, it will be like herding cats, but the longer we put it off, the harder it will become.