Split: Difficulty for new players

[Pleb]

What's wrong with being a 'clean' pirate?

[Switeck]

Adjust trader behaviour. Allow trader groups to help out each other against pirate attack sometimes. In a safe system, if you get attacked by a pirate, maybe a nearby trader will help you out.

Switeck's Shipping OXP modifies some arriving-to-the-system traders to be pseudo-bounty hunters that will sometimes attack pirates.

[onno256]

Hey Guys,

I've installed 1.77 and I mstarted a new savegame (currently the Cobra MKIII), I also use custom shields OXP.
I am above average now, and haven't been killed yet. I do have to play a bit smarter though! Which means only picking a fight when I think I can survive....

Greetz,
Onno.

[Captain Tylor]

Hi,
Wouldn`t increasing police presence in safe systems be an alternative as it would increase the chance of help coming and make it more dangerous for player pirates.

[Disembodied]

I think risk is only fun if there's a way to mitigate it, though. A new player really doesn't have many options for that, at the moment, and a single Cobra I or Moray can be deadly if it fires its missile (which it always does, if the player starts winning). Conversely, for an Elite pilot in a well-equipped ship, there's barely any risk at all, and that's also a problem.

What I'm thinking about at the moment as possibilities is a fairly large set of (semi-independent) changes (and this is semi-stream-of-consciousness first thoughts and talking points, nothing more) [...]

That's a great set of ideas and principles, IMO! There's a lot of work there, especially creating a more complex set of NPC (pirate and trader) behaviours, but it could really add a lot of variety. What would help a lot I think would be a little bit of feedback to the player, probably by way of ship communications, which could show what the NPCs were "thinking". It wouldn't have to be all the time, but just now and then the player could get a nudge to show that e.g. traders were helping each other out, or that pirates were breaking off and fleeing, or that if the player dropped cargo the pirates would let them leave.

Perhaps the biggest potential change would be having criminal NPCs responding differently to criminal players ... that could really set up a new dynamic for the game, as well as ending the peculiar situations like the casual attitude within the main system stations to the arrival of one of the galaxy's most notorious criminals. It would be interesting to think about how that might work: there could be scatters of pirate nests around the place, off-lane, in lots of different (but not all) systems. Maybe criminal players would be able to join a gang/guild of pirates/smugglers, who might have good or bad relations with other gangs or guilds ... probably too they should have to pay some sort of regular tithe to keep up their membership. Players could still be lone-wolf bandits, of course, but then they'd still be potential targets for piracy.

[Cody]

... a single Cobra I or Moray can be deadly if it fires its missile (which it always does, if the player starts winning).

This is the real problem for a virgin Jameson, it seems - avoiding missiles. I have no answer for that (except to remove missiles from the game, or loan a Jameson a one-shot ECM <chortles>). However, I still maintain that if the dice roll in your favour, the early game is quite survivable.

I have no real problem with the first two principles, as long as there remains some element of risk in #1.
As for the third principle - this I agree with wholeheartedly.

I very much like the idea of multiple stations, especially if placed all around the planet, and wider 'lanes. As for giving NPCs shields, I already play with NPC-Shields installed (have done for ages), so my opinion on that is obvious - bring it on!

Now I need coffee badly.

[Zieman]

Perhaps the biggest potential change would be having criminal NPCs responding differently to criminal players ... that could really set up a new dynamic for the game

I set this type of behaviour for pirate ships in my Far Arm ships OXP. If player has higher bounty than 10 Cr on his/her/its head/neural cluster, these pirates don't attack (or break the attack if they had already started attacking), and send friendly comms.

Maybe criminal players would be able to join a gang/guild of pirates/smugglers, who might have good or bad relations with other gangs or guilds ... probably too they should have to pay some sort of regular tithe to keep up their membership. Players could still be lone-wolf bandits, of course, but then they'd still be potential targets for piracy.

I'm going to implement something along these lines, once I expand Far Arm ships OXP to Far Arm OXP. There will be a pirate gang, merchant guild and maybe more. Anyway, the idea is to have certain NPCs react to the player's reputation (separate value for each group), which of course changes depending on what the player does.

[Diziet Sma]

What's wrong with being a 'clean' pirate?

Nothing.. but if Oolite is going to assign the player a role based on behaviour, such things might need taking into consideration.

[another_commander]

... a single Cobra I or Moray can be deadly if it fires its missile (which it always does, if the player starts winning).

This is the real problem for a virgin Jameson, it seems - avoiding missiles. I have no answer for that (except to remove missiles from the game, or loan a Jameson a one-shot ECM <chortles>). However, I still maintain that if the dice roll in your favour, the early game is quite survivable.

Regarding missiles: At the beginning they are indeed very difficult. However, we should not forget the tactic of launching one missile at them if they launch one at you, hoping that they will try to ECM it, destroying their own missile in the process. I've done it plenty of times and it works. However, I admit that although it generally helps, it is not a complete mitigation of the risk.

Maybe one other way of dealing with this in the core code could be putting in a random duration delay (like one to two seconds) from the moment the AI decides the missile is go until the moment it is actually fired. This more or less simulates also a human player. Even though it is not very obvious, it does take one or two seconds to "flick the switch" and fire from the moment the decision to launch is made. Doing this could possibly buy the human player a bit more precious time to destroy the enemy ship and would hopefully remove most cases we've seen, where a missile is seen leaving the enemy ship at the same moment in which the enemy ship's explosion happens.

Assuming that we somehow manage to better the situation with the missiles doing too much harm at start, I believe that the rest is quite well balanced as it is now (once the player starts putting Behemoth and Navy and Super Pirates OXPs that's a completely different story of course). I also want to note that cim's ideas are very interesting and I am looking forward to an initial implementation, but maintaining balance after such changes might be quite challenging and I would consider these changes a long(ish)-term goal.

[Cody]

However, we should not forget the tactic of launching one missile at them if they launch one at you, hoping that they will try to ECM it, destroying their own missile in the process.

Yeah, that does work - sometimes! With the several Jamesons I've started recently for testing, the real killer has been getting jumped by three or four bandits at once, which doesn't always happen - the dice roll again.

[another_commander]

There is also the get-away option: Assuming you have enough fuel, set an escape destination as soon as you enter system. If you see three or four bandits appearing and it is obvious that you can't run away before they get you, hyper-out. Again, not always a solution, but that's why I like Oolite: there is something you can do to tackle most situations, but it may or may not be the solution to the problem...

[Cody]

There is also the get-away option: Assuming you have enough fuel, set an escape destination as soon as you enter system. If you see three or four bandits appearing and it is obvious that you can't run away before they get you, hyper-out.

Aye, you should always have an escape jump laid-in - but bandits will follow you, remember (unlike Vipers).

[Eric Walch]

There is also the get-away option: Assuming you have enough fuel, ...

That tactic even works without fuel if you use the Galactic jump....

Better in the wrong galaxy than dead.

[Cody]

Better in the wrong galaxy than dead.

That's why I always carry a galactic hyperdrive - in case I get stranded in IS (which is very, very rare for me).
But a GH wouldn't apply for a Jameson, of course.

[Disembodied]

There is also the get-away option: Assuming you have enough fuel, set an escape destination as soon as you enter system. If you see three or four bandits appearing and it is obvious that you can't run away before they get you, hyper-out. Again, not always a solution, but that's why I like Oolite: there is something you can do to tackle most situations, but it may or may not be the solution to the problem...

Another option is to let pirates demand cargo: "Heave to and drop your cargo!"; "Your cargo or your life!", etc. If the player complies, this should give them an option to escape, albeit at a cost - to their wallet and to their pride. It makes sense from a pirate point of view, too: if merchants know that they can survive with only financial loss, they'll be more likely to comply and the pirates won't be faced with a fight to the death. There would have to be accepted ways of doing this: pirates would expect more loot from bigger ships (but presumably a pirate in a Cobra I wouldn't want more than 10 tons), and it would have to be dropped at reasonable speeds, so it could be scooped. This gives starting players a chance to survive, even if they do get attacked - plus it adds a nice element to the player's own story, and indeed could add some extra relish in the future when they get to kill their first bad guy and nick his stuff ...