RFC: Bounties and Galcop law

[Fatleaf]

Or maybe only have full pirates in systems that have rock hermits. As rock hermits are quite common so it wouldn't limit full pirates too much. Also with the rock hermit locator you could have an inkling as to the likely hood of full pirates.

[cim]

... the ones you follow to another system, but sooner or later they'll run out of fuel, and there's no guarantee of a rock hermit existing.

Maybe they could sunskim if there are no rock hermits and they need fuel? I like the idea of a rock hermit in every system, well away from the sun-planet-witchpoint plane, btw (I'd expect them to be everywhere, anyway), but agree that it could be a little unbalancing - maybe.

It's mainly Geckos and Kraits that I see doing the "trader-pirate" thing, and neither of those has a witchdrive in the first place. True, the ones with a drive should be sunskimming until they find a system with a hermit.

I guess if the only way to find the rock hermit is to follow a full pirate - and if they rapidly leave the plane rather than following the main spacelane once they have enough, you won't see full pirates so often anyway - the amount of effort needed to find it almost certainly means there are quicker ways to make money. OXPable for experimentation, anyway, I think.

[Commander McLane]

I like all suggestions in cim's first post.

Also, this:

Of course, the bitwise OR thing is a hacky optimization for eight-bit systems. It might be more reasonable to use an add-with-cap approach (e.g. a general rule that increasing the bounty by x can never raise it above 2x). I don’t feel strongly about this, but I thought it should be on the table.

The strength of the bitwise OR (setting an upper limit) is also its limitation: you get to the upper limit immediately, especially if it's OR (2^n)-1. So I think that some thoughts about a new algorithm that would (a) set an upper limit and (b) approach that limit in more than one step would be well spent. My main interest, though, would be to do away with the infinite bounty increases, and cap the bounties.

As a reminder: apart from making the player rich, bounties serve one purpose in the game: they determine how fast a police ship will find (and subsequently attack) a ship when scanning for offenders: an offender with a bounty of 1 is very likely to slip under the radar of multiple scans, an offender (fugitive) with a bounty of 255 will be identified and attacked after the first scan with absolute certainty. In-between these two extremes there's room to go undetected for a bigger or smaller amount of scans. For this mechanism it makes absolutely no difference (and therefore absolutely no sense) to have bounties > 255. Bounties above this threshold (especially for non-special-ships) are only justifiable as a get-rich-quick-scheme for the player, and get-rich-quick-schemes are not justifiable in my opinion.

I think it's also worthwhile to keep Wildeblood's point in mind: the bounties are an internal game mechanism. They're not meant to be exposed (and fall victim to an arms race), but to serve their internal purpose, which is to help determine NPC's attitude and behaviour towards each other and the player.

[Switeck]

Or maybe only have full pirates in systems that have rock hermits. As rock hermits are quite common so it wouldn't limit full pirates too much. Also with the rock hermit locator you could have an inkling as to the likely hood of full pirates.

Full pirates could be limited to only systems that have a rock hermit, (pirate coves are a type of rock hermit) plus a random chance modified by how "dangerous" the system is.

Otherwise there would always be full pirates in every system that has a rock hermit, even corporate states.

For this mechanism it makes absolutely no difference (and therefore absolutely no sense) to have bounties > 255. Bounties above this threshold (especially for non-special-ships) are only justifiable as a get-rich-quick-scheme for the player, and get-rich-quick-schemes are not justifiable in my opinion.

Surely, you mean this in hyperbole only?

I mean having to cross 14+ LY, fight what is effectively a well-armed small convoy to kill a "mothership" that's worth 1000 credits...is a get-rich-quick-scheme for the player? My ammo and repair costs alone from doing such missions say otherwise!

[Wildeblood]

For this mechanism it makes absolutely no difference (and therefore absolutely no sense) to have bounties > 255. Bounties above this threshold (especially for non-special-ships) are only justifiable as a get-rich-quick-scheme for the player, and get-rich-quick-schemes are not justifiable in my opinion.

Surely, you mean this in hyperbole only?

With a bounty of 255 a pilot has unpaid fines of 12750 credits. In a universe were magic fuel that can transport you across 7 light-years at faster than light speed costs 14 credits, 12750 credits is a lot of parking tickets.

[cim]

Or maybe only have full pirates in systems that have rock hermits. As rock hermits are quite common so it wouldn't limit full pirates too much. Also with the rock hermit locator you could have an inkling as to the likely hood of full pirates.

Full pirates could be limited to only systems that have a rock hermit, (pirate coves are a type of rock hermit) plus a random chance modified by how "dangerous" the system is.

Remember that the game engine never generates full pirates at the moment. It generates empty pirates, who scoop up enough cargo to fill their holds and then wonder what they're going to do next. There is therefore little direct control over where they appear.

[Switeck]

With a bounty of 255 a pilot has unpaid fines of 12750 credits. In a universe were magic fuel that can transport you across 7 light-years at faster than light speed costs 14 credits, 12750 credits is a lot of parking tickets.

...Or in other words, less than 1/10th the cost of a Python which is considered a "bargain" ship.

Remember that the game engine never generates full pirates at the moment. It generates empty pirates, who scoop up enough cargo to fill their holds and then wonder what they're going to do next. There is therefore little direct control over where they appear.

Pirates in my Switeck's Shipping OXP already do a little more than that.

[Commander McLane]

For this mechanism it makes absolutely no difference (and therefore absolutely no sense) to have bounties > 255. Bounties above this threshold (especially for non-special-ships) are only justifiable as a get-rich-quick-scheme for the player, and get-rich-quick-schemes are not justifiable in my opinion.

Surely, you mean this in hyperbole only?

I mean what I wrote. Bounties above 255 Cr. serve no game-engine purpose, therefore--if they exist--they can only serve a non-game-engine-related purpose. That's purely logical. The obvious non-game-engine-related purpose that springs to mind is money. That's what I call "making the player rich".

This can make sense if there's a considerable risk attached to the riches, that's why I'm making the distinction between special ships and non-special ships in the parenthesis. I can accept the 2000'ish Cr. bounty for a Thargoid Carrier (v 2; the original was a sitting duck and totally overpriced by the engine), because it's heavily armed and risky to attack. By the same line of thinking I can also accept the 200-400 Cr. range of bounties for renegade and military ships from the respective OXPs. They are very dangerous opponents who can blow the player away before he even can engage them. What I find repulsive is a bounty in the hundreds or thousands of Cr. for an ordinary run-of-the-mill Ferdie or Gecko who just happened to switch its target dozens of times in a prolonged fight with a trader and its escorts and some police ship. And then the player comes along, blows the poor weakling out of its existence with just a couple of shots, and earns an amount of money that is in no relation whatsoever to the strength of the opponent and the risk that had to be taken. That's a get-rich-quick-scheme for me.

I mean having to cross 14+ LY, fight what is effectively a well-armed small convoy to kill a "mothership" that's worth 1000 credits...is a get-rich-quick-scheme for the player? My ammo and repair costs alone from doing such missions say otherwise!

I have no idea which scenario you're referring to. You don't need to cross a single light year for earning an out-of-proportion bounty from killing an ordinary Gecko that had been in a prolonged fight with multiple opponents. That's something which just happens as you stroll along the corridor. And this is the scenario that I'd like to see eliminated from the game.

I think you're talking about things like a Random Hits contract. That's effectively a mission, and mission rewards can be whatever the scripter sees fit. I have no quarrel with that.

But for standard bounties there should be a range, and personally I think that 1-255 is a fine and totally sufficient range. Even 1-200 would be sufficient to distinguish the poor bastards from the tough guys. And whenever the player encounters a bounty that's wildly out of this range, it should be immediately clear that he's dealing with something that is a totally different ballgame from the normal pirates that he encounters in his everyday activities. And encountering a totally different ballgame should be a rare event (much rarer than once per jump).

[Pleb]

I understand and sort of agree with what you're saying Commander McLane, but surely 255 Cr. is a very small amount of money for a bounty? By what you're saying, it wouldn't matter how many ships you'd destroyed, and how many people you'd killed, and how much crime you could have caused...that the bounty would never be higher than 255 Cr.? Then why are all those Bounty Hunters so persistant in chasing me for an amount of money that wouldn't buy very much in the way of anything in the Ooniverse?

[Cody]

Then why are all those Bounty Hunters so persistant in chasing me for an amount of money that wouldn't buy very much in the way of anything in the Ooniverse?

Kudos! It's not just the money, it's the bragging rights - the man who shot Commander Pleb!

[Pleb]

Kudos! It's not just the money, it's the bragging rights - the man who shot Commander Pleb!

Nobody has shot me down yet, that's why my Fugitive status remains to this day! (God bless the Escape Pod - live to fight another crime-filled day!)

But seriously, maybe there should be a cap but set it a bit higher than 255 Cr. I mean, using a real life example, if America wanted a criminal outside its borders brought in for justice and offered 'Dawg The Bawunty Hawnter' $255 he'd tell them to **** off haha!

So its need to be set a realistic amount to be realisticly implemented.

[Disembodied]

But seriously, maybe there should be a cap but set it a bit higher than 255 Cr. I mean, using a real life example, if America wanted a criminal outside its borders brought in for justice and offered 'Dawg The Bawunty Hawnter' $255 he'd tell them to **** off haha!

So its need to be set a realistic amount to be realisticly implemented.

But a Cr is not a $ – unless you know where I can buy a kilo of gold for $38 ...

I think Commander McClane's point is a good one. I don't see any problem with OXP-generated high-bounty malefactors, but the core game should probably keep a lid on things, to avoid awarding jackpot bounties to bog-standard pirates.

[Pleb]

I'm not saying that you should get a massive reward for every other pirate you take out, but perhaps there should be the 1/100 or even 1/1000 pirate that has a larger bounty, otherwise there isn't much point in hunting pirates! And as I said, why would Bounty Hunters bother if they are only going to get a maximum of 255 Cr. per kill? It just isn't worth it!

[Disembodied]

I'm not saying that you should get a massive reward for every other pirate you take out, but perhaps there should be the 1/100 or even 1/1000 pirate that has a larger bounty, otherwise there isn't much point in hunting pirates! And as I said, why would Bounty Hunters bother if they are only going to get a maximum of 255 Cr. per kill? It just isn't worth it!

It's well worth it ... it's pretty much my bread and butter. Beyond buying cheap precious metals and gems when I find them, I don't buy cargo at all, except on odd occasions when I'm going to be visiting a Corporate State or the like. Mostly I take my empty cargo bay off to one of the wilder systems, destroy any pirates I find and take my pick of their leavings. It can be very profitable, especially when you've only got a 10-ton cargo bay. A ton of scooped Alloys has the same profit margin as a ton of Computers bought on a Rich Industrial and shipped to a Poor Agricultural ... and many pirates have stashes of gold, gems and platinum on board too. Blowing up a single pirate Python can easily net you several hundred credits.

[Switeck]

The ever-escalating credits for a lowly pirate that's switching targets is a bug/exploit, but getting such to >100,000 credits is a bit time-consuming. The screenshots I posted awhile back for a high credit pirate Ferdie had it at ~2,200 credits. Still stupidly high, but shy of 100,000 credits by a significant margin. And that took about 15 minutes. I have seen the Black Monks Monastery station become a fugitive worth >60,000 credits because it killed almost anything that damaged it. But who could cash that one in?

But seriously, maybe there should be a cap but set it a bit higher than 255 Cr.

So its need to be set a realistic amount to be realistically implemented.

The cost of a single hardhead missile is 350 credits. I don't know how to kill a pirate with half a missile...either I have to spend the whole missile or I don't use the missile at all. If the risk is high enough to merit a hardhead missile, the reward should be worth enough to pay for one missile.

However the bounty itself is not (and need not be) the only way to cover combat costs...Scooped cargo from destroyed ships can be silly if they contain Gold/Plat/Gems. And the bounty (or insurance) for scooped pirate escape pods can go as high as 500 credits. It's almost money farming to scoop escape pods compared to killing pirate ships quicker than they can eject. So a lower risk way of doing that is just wait. After ~10-30 minutes, the influx of new traders to a system is typically enough to overwhelm what few pirates are placed along the main route, leaving lots of cargo/escape pods free for the taking. That won't work as well if Switeck's Shipping OXP is installed, because some traders scoop cargo.