Group allegiances

[Galileo]

Disclaimer: This idea would require quite a few changes, so it's not exactly a request but a discussion about a possible future direction.

The way I see it, not everyone in the ooniverse is going to be a freelance pirate/trader/hunter. What I think would be cool is if there were a standard (non-OXP) set of corporations, unions, groups, etc. that ships were randomly assigned to according to their usefulness in that particular field. For example, Moray Medical Boats and Vipers would usually belong to GalCop, Anacondas would usually belong to big shipping companies (not freelance), Mussuranas would usually be owned by executives of large commercial organisations, etc.

How groups might be implemented: I would like to see three things when you target a ship:

1. Make and model of the ship (much like we have now (Cobra MkIII, etc.)).
2. Main group allegiance of the ship.
3. Legal status.

e.g.
-------------------------------------------
Viper (clean)
GalCop Police
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Krait (offender)
S&A Security
-------------------------------------------

I suggest three levels of group allegiances:

1. AllegianceType
- Commercial
- Freelance
- GalCop
- Local Government
- Pirate Clans
etc. etc.

2. AllegianceSubtype
Each type may have various subtypes (or none at all). For example, Commercial types may have subtypes:
- Mining
- Tourism / Entertainment
- Transport
- Security

3. AllegianceGroup
Each subtype (or just type if no subtypes) would then be split into the specific groups. For Commercial Mining goups there might be:
- BHP Mining
- Empire Mining
- etc. you get the picture (maybe there could be a certain amount of random names, like system names)

The likelihood that a ship is part of a AllegianceType (or subtype or even group) could be specified in shipdata.plist (the way roles are now) and new groups could be added in descriptions.plist (or somewhere else) for use in OXPs.

I think this would add a whole new dimension to Oolite while not detracting from the overall atmosphere of the game (in any negative way at least). Anyway, please discuss this whether you like the idea or not.

[JensAyton]

The Man has spoken out against factions.

[Selezen]

Yeah - no factions.

Isn't it more fun to let your imagination fill in the gaps?

Anyway - it's easy to work out some factions from existing information.

If a Viper Interceptor flies past, it's working for the Police. If a ship start to attack you without provocation, it's a pirate. If you're a fugitive anda ship starts attacking you, it's a bounty hunter.

Job done.

[Galileo]

I don't really understand that logic. If it's more fun to let your imagination fill in the gaps, then why bother with things like legal rating? If a ship attacks you and you never attack anyone, then it must be a pirate, etc. Why bother with the game at all? Just kick back and daydream.

Factions are present and implied in the game already, such as GalCop, the bulk traders and Thargoids. What about all the escorts getting around, they don't do it out of the goodness of their heart. They work for someone. Who?

[Selezen]

That's just what I'm getting at: the factions are IMPLIED, rather than spelled out for you!!

Legal rating serves a legitimate purpose in the game - not so much for NPCs, but more for the player. Plus, stating that an oncoming ship is of a paticular legal status gives no clue as to why, or what that pilot might do. An Offender could be an offender for accidentally firing at a police ship during a skirmish, or he could be a lucky pirate who just hasn't been caught yet!

If you want to look right back at the original games, you'll notice that GalCop is NEVER mentioned in the actual game. The primary faction is only directly referenced in the manual and accompanying novellae. If the manual had just been a list of commands and instructions on how to fly, how many different interpretations of the game would there be? That's how open to the imagination the original game was!

When I used to play the Spectrum version, at the height of my immersion in this pocket universe, my mind used to wander all over the place when I was waiting to pass a ship going the other way so I could re-engage the jump drive. I used to wonder what pilots did on thier nights off; I used to wonder where the other ship was going and who was on board. I had a cast of thousands in my head and a whole society that they were part of.

It's probably going to open me up to abuse, but the Elite universe is very real to me, and the beauty of it is that my imagined universe is very much the same as everyone else's, as evidenced by other fan fiction and even the little tweaks and touches Giles has added into Oolite! Isn't it cool that our collective imaginations have basically brought us all to the same point?

All I am saying is that Elite and Oolite's beauty lies in the open ended nature and the journey that the imagination can take you through it. Anything like factions or linear structures constrain that imagination, and I'm against that in principle. No offence to anyone else's opinions is meant.

[Flying_Circus]

I don't know if I Giles has spoken against it, but Selezen and myself have.

There are a number of arguments against factions: some practical, some ideological. Personally, I don't buy the 'originality' argument at all (i.e 'the original didn't have them so this miust not have them'). This game would die a death if it tried to straightjacket player's extensions to the extent that they only conformed to the features of a game that were dictated by the capabilities of a computer with 32K of RAM, built a quarter of a century ago. If Bell and Braben had been able to have factions, they'd have had them.

No. Personally, I just don't think full-on, player-defined 'factions' would scale well, or play nicely with each other , although I think that's a good idea, in principle, and games like Privateer Gemini Gold show that it is clearly implementable, in that instance, at least... However PGG doesn't have to cope with player OXPs, and I think multiple player OXPs could put a major load on the AI, as it tries to work out who should attack who, based on different OXPs, built, perhaps, over several version-cycles of the main game. All sorts of dependency-collisions, with other OXPs would probably result.

Anyway, you've already achieved something like this in the Link missions, haven't you? Ramaazan Government vessels show up with a purple, GalCop-like scan-class on the scanner, yet come under fire from GalCops (and the 'Link Vessels'), just as if they were offfenders. 'Factions' effectively boil down to a more extensible, open-ended, scanClass attibute and scriptable response behaviours for the AI, in response to a scanClass it recieves.

Either way, Privgold is open source, too: see how they achieved it .

[Frantic]

Well, it is more in the Elite style to assume that bounty hunters, traders, and pirates are freelance like the player, and are roaming the galaxy looking for easy profit.

This said, in Feudal and Multi-Government systems, it would add depth to see some of the in-system craft with some form of allegiance. The odd rock hermit type of faction based station to supply firearms to would be very cool, and the odd chance of war breaking out between the factions while you're in system.

Supplying one faction with goods could get you attacked by the other faction's otherwise non-hostile craft, and you could then take a more active part in the war, being paid bounties for destroying enemy craft, and having to ensure your faction's home base remains supplied with certain trade goods.

To discover a faction base, you'd have to tail the winner of a confrontation either back to his base, or along his patrol to the front lines and eventually the enemy base.

Winner of a war changes the economic pricing of the galcop station to their prefered economy/government. If this is a problem in the save file, delete the change if the system isn't visited for a long time, or the player galaxy jumps.

Actively promoting an Anarchistic government into power gets you fugitive status. Promoting a fledgeling democratic government into power in an anarchy gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.

Factions could exist everywhere on the rare occurance, providing an opportunity for the player to expand upon. Democratic factions might only consist of some small alternate democratic faction, in which case nothing could be gained. If there were a small corporate state faction, only through excessive trade could the smaller faction gain the upper hand, and only a very very rare chance of war.

Anarchistic systems would similarly have the highest chance of only other anarchist factions, with the small chance of something more democratic cropping up (but weaker and needing your help!).

Of course, if "no factions" is meant to ber all encompassing, then this whole idea is OXP rterritory. But c'mon, we all want to participate in a war :-)

I've found it quite fun in Oolite running back and forth between a station and a rock hermit making profits on the price differences, and breaking up all the asteroids to generate traffic from passing scavengers. I noticed, however, that when AI ships dock they don't affect the stock in the rock hermit. I was kinda hoping for those couple of ships to be loading up all the minerals I broke up for them so I could make an easy 35t pickup.

[JensAyton]

…However PGG doesn't have to cope with player OXPs, and I think multiple player OXPs could put a major load on the AI, as it tries to work out who should attack who, based on different OXPs, built, perhaps, over several version-cycles of the main game. All sorts of dependency-collisions, with other OXPs would probably result.

For a game that’s customisable on a greater scale than Oolite and implements factions without trouble, see Escape Velocity Nova. There’s no reason it would provide any great strain on the AI; factions could have relationships specified towards other factions and a fallback behaviour for unkown factions. The game could even generate a standing depending on whether the faction’s allies have an opinion. Basically, implementation issues are not a good reason to be against a faction system. They may be a good reason not to get around to creating one, but that’s hardly your problem. :-)

[Flying_Circus]

If it is doable, then I say: 'build it, and they will come'. There is "strict play" for those of a 'Purist' frame of mind; while there is drag-and-drop game modification, for those who wish to experiment with which version of Oolite-reality fits them best... As far as the goal of 'remaking Elite with modern technology' was concerned, Giles already hit that goal, many months ago: if you just want 'classic elite, but with filled-in faces on me polygons, please', then download anything from about 1.5 onwards, switch on "Classic" style play, retreat to your bedroom and order a lifetime's supply of pizza... Go on, knock yourselves out!;)

We certainly don't need factions about who does thinks factions are a good idea, or not .

(I actually do think the ability to add factions might add to the game - as long as those clamouring for them realise that other, wider, priorities exist, that will probably come first.)

[Selezen]

If they have an audience, then i'm all for them being in. I'd suggest having them as an optional addin, like an uber-OXP.

[Galileo]

(I actually do think the ability to add factions might add to the game - as long as those clamouring for them realise that other, wider, priorities exist, that will probably come first.)

I for one, certainly do recognise that this is nowhere near being top priority stuff. The main reason I posted this was because I was thinking about how Oolite might have evolved in say 5 years time. Most people probably see multiplayer as the holy grail but I'm not really interested in that, because, similar to Selezens views, I see the NPCs as being real already.

I'm also opposed to Oolite having a linear storyline but that's not how I envision this being implemented, it shouldn't constrain the imagination, it should aid it. I want to be able to choose a career and be immersed in that world. Things like mining, as dull as they seem now, might be really interesting if you were contracted by a particular company to mine a certain asteroid field. You could get paid wages if you meet a quota, the more efficient you become, the more you are paid. Other companies might try and convince you to work for them, certain companies might compete heavily with another company, with all sorts of espionage involved. The possibilities are (nearly) endless.

[Frantic]

Anything that happens in game, that is rare to come across, adds to that whole sense that there are things out there to find. I'm sure most of us when we first played Elite were always excited at the prospect of coming across something new.

For the most part, I think a lot of the OXP ideas shouldn't become a day-to-day part of the game. THe game should still be about Jameson going system to system and living off the basic methods of survival in the original Elite. But occasionally a hand coded mission comes up, or the dice are thrown luckily and something different opens up. It's a reason to keep playing.

[CWolf]

At the end of the day a maybe more subtle approach could be this:

We already have small corporate factions of a kind. We have the Viper defence fleets operating as per the original. We have the Frog taxis (which can be removed), we have the chav Boyracers, we have various groups that work together in the ooniverse already and any more will just be more oxps.

Have an OXP per Corporation/Pirate Nest/Whatever. For each one it keeps a track of how you fair by each of them. No need to work it into the core mechanics of the game. If you feel that the imaginative side of it is spoilt because you are now being hunted by a gigantic third party that should not be there then just remove (or never install in the first place) the oxp relating to them.

In short - it's business as usual. I personally don't think we need the classifications as mentioned in the first post, after all - do the police use the same cars around the world? Even UPS vans vary.


Oh, and Selezen - you aren't opening yourself up in any bad way, this whole forum/game or any of the Alioth/Wiki stuff wouldn't exist if we didn't all have some deeper connection than it just being a game.

I too remember the excitement of my first contact with another world, I saw it in full panoramic colour vision with the best in sound and that personal feeling you get when communicating with another kind... Bearing in mind I was actually in front of an 8 colour screen with no real sounds apart from my keyboard.