Progress

[Gimi]

I understand this, I think I even understand why it would happen. So my thought was some sort of lock_formation command, something that effectively will make a flight of ships act as one unit.
So the flight forms up in formation, locks in formation, performs attack run, when 2 km past target breaks formation, joins formation at 10km, repeat.

The problem is that for any target much smaller than "really quite enormous" and/or much faster than "stationary", the objectives of "remain in formation with flight leader" and "hit the same target as the flight leader" are contradictory. At a distance of around 10km, you need to be accurate to less than a degree to hit a fairly large ship (like a Cobra III or Python). At a flight separation of about 1km (a fairly tight formation, given the size of these ships) you need to fly on a trajectory over 5 degrees different to hit the same target at 10km.

Hm, parallax problems. I know how modern RL weapons systems deal with this problem, but don't think those procedures and tactics would be relevant for Oolite. I'm going to start thinking about coordinated attacks on multiple vectors instead. Thanks cim.

[Switeck]

It's ok if the formation breaks down when attacking, so long as they attack the same target. They will tend to converge and not get separated that way. Then when the flight leader chooses the next target, others will either target the same thing...or if they can't see it, head towards the flight leader.

[Commander McLane]

In other AI news, side lasers are now available in shipdata and for JS. Ships with side lasers fitted will automatically use them in combat as a variation on their normal attacks. The AI command "performBroadside" can be used to force the next attack run (only) to be made with side lasers.

No ships in the original set have side lasers, so this is going to be an OXP-NPC-only feature, which I'd find slightly odd. Are there thoughts about addressing this issue, for instance by giving some of the basic ships side lasers in the next version of Oolite?

On a related note, currently only few OXP-NPCs sport side lasers. To be precise, it's those whose authors either falsely assumed the validity of port_weapon_type and starboard_weapon_type, or simply included them out of a false sense of completeness. In other words: it's not necessarily the ships we would sensibly expect to suddenly have side lasers in Oolite 1.77. Are there thoughts about addressing this issue as well?

[cim]

No ships in the original set have side lasers, so this is going to be an OXP-NPC-only feature, which I'd find slightly odd. Are there thoughts about addressing this issue, for instance by giving some of the basic ships side lasers in the next version of Oolite?

Given how few of the core ships even have aft lasers (Anaconda, Boa and Boa II, none of which are used by pirates), there's certainly precedent for weapons only really used by the player and OXP ships! (see also: Q-mines, and if you don't count the Constrictor, Military Lasers)

What I could do is add a couple of extra shipdata properties:
extra_weapon_chance: 0.0-1.0
extra_weapon_facings: 1-15 (same as the shipyard.plist property)
Then:

Code: Select all

set up basic ship weapons
do {
  choice = randf();
  if (choice < chance) {
    pick eligible facing;
    if (that_weapon < BEAM_LASER) {
      upgrade weapon one step;
    } else if (choice < chance/4) {
      upgrade weapon one step; // military lasers should be very rare
    }
    if (side facing) { upgrade other side if worse;}
  }
} while (choice < chance && choice < 0.5); // allow rarer multiple upgrades

Add the canonical extra_weapon_facings to the stock shipdata.plist, and then give most ships a low extra_weapon_chance (around 0.1, perhaps?). Both aft and side lasers - or even a beam laser when a pulse laser was expected - are capable of giving a Jameson a nasty surprise, so I wouldn't want many pirates to have them.

The shipset OXPs will need updating, though, if I do it this way.

On a related note, currently only few OXP-NPCs sport side lasers. To be precise, it's those whose authors either falsely assumed the validity of port_weapon_type and starboard_weapon_type, or simply included them out of a false sense of completeness. In other words: it's not necessarily the ships we would sensibly expect to suddenly have side lasers in Oolite 1.77. Are there thoughts about addressing this issue as well?

I'll have a look at how widespread this is. I think it will be up to the OXP writers to adjust their OXPs, though - I can't think of a sensible "guess what they meant" heuristic for this.

[Smivs]

TBH my first instinct is to leave things as they are with respect to the core ships.
There are plenty of OXPs which toughen-up NPCs if that's what the player wants, and a change like this could have serious consequences if not thought through. For example the higher levels of my ToughGuys3 has for example a pirate Boa Class Cruiser which has front and rear mil lasers, extra energy and naval shields. It's a seriously tough bugger already and if any change along these lines gave it side lasers and the ability to use them effectively it would be too much!
Perhaps these changes should be put in place in a way that OXP authors can use them if needed, but leave the core game alone.

[Commander McLane]

Adding a random component to availability of NPC-lasers sounds good.

One thing I wouldn't do, however, is a random upgrade to military lasers. The core ships should stay balanced for a newbie player without OXPs, in my opinion. I feel that giving random opponents military lasers would tip that balance in a way that a random additional side laser would not be able to. Thus a yes to the latter and a clear no to the former.

On a related note, currently only few OXP-NPCs sport side lasers. To be precise, it's those whose authors either falsely assumed the validity of port_weapon_type and starboard_weapon_type, or simply included them out of a false sense of completeness. In other words: it's not necessarily the ships we would sensibly expect to suddenly have side lasers in Oolite 1.77. Are there thoughts about addressing this issue as well?

I'll have a look at how widespread this is.

I think not very. Personally I have always considered it a bug in shipdata, and eliminated it in my personal copies wherever I found it. Some ship designers deliberately used it to make their creations tougher (although of course it never worked), therefore adding side lasers to Oolite helps these ships to finally match the vision their designers originally had in mind. But I strongly guess that it also went to other shipdata by copypasta without much thought.

[JD]

One interesting aspect of side lasers on NPCs is that this could prove to be an area where the NPCs gain something of an advantage (not that I'm complaining). I only rarely use my side lasers, and generally not to very good effect, so it would be interesting to see how good an aim the NPCs can muster. And also, if they try to hold their aim for any length of time, whether it makes a noticeable difference to their patterns of manoeuvring.

[cim]

it would be interesting to see how good an aim the NPCs can muster

Slightly less accurate than they are with their fore lasers, but only just. And yes, they'll try to hold their aim quite a bit. It makes them more dangerous than before, but not by a lot.

and if any change along these lines gave it side lasers and the ability to use them effectively it would be too much!

I suspect a BCC wouldn't gain that much benefit from side lasers as using them would expose its large flank to the enemy, but if you have some toughened Cobra IIIs or Morays they'd definitely be even more dangerous with them.

I think random weapon upgrades (like the other random equipment variation) is probably a good idea. Bearing in mind the comments I'd probably set the chance of an upgrade for the core ships to zero, at this stage. I'll see if I can put an OXP together for this, though.

[cim]

Adding a random component to availability of NPC-lasers sounds good.

TBH my first instinct is to leave things as they are with respect to the core ships.

Perhaps the best way to settle this is with a prototype...
A quick OXP simulation of the potential feature (1.77 only, of course)

Install it, and it will give approximately 1 in 10 eligible ships a random weapon upgrade:
- ships with primaryRole = escort, hunter, pirate, trader only
- ships with a dataKey that sounds a bit like a core ship only
Upgrades to military laser are possible, but very unlikely. (Needs to get the 1 in 10 upgrade chance, then pick a slot which already has a beam laser - and it's biased away from picking the forward slot unless the ship has nothing else, then pass a further 1 in 10 check to get the mil laser)

The rate of upgrades, and the chance of a military laser upgrade, can be changed in script.js (set this.chance = 1.0 for some noticeably toughened opponents, and plenty of side laser fighting)

[Switeck]

Upgrades to military laser are possible, but very unlikely. (Needs to get the 1 in 10 upgrade chance, then pick a slot which already has a beam laser - and it's biased away from picking the forward slot unless the ship has nothing else, then pass a further 1 in 10 check to get the mil laser)

Does this mean it's biased to put the military laser somewhere other than the front? (...for the rare times a military laser is given.)

[Eric Walch]

TBH my first instinct is to leave things as they are with respect to the core ships.

I agree with Smivs that the core ship should be left alone and leave it to an oxp to add extra lasers.

Perhaps the best way to settle this is with a prototype... A quick OXP simulation of the potential feature (1.77 only, of course)

Install it, and it will give approximately 1 in 10 eligible ships a random weapon upgrade:

cim's oxp is a nice one to immediately give a lot of existing ships side weapons without rewriting old oxp's.

[cim]

Does this mean it's biased to put the military laser somewhere other than the front? (...for the rare times a military laser is given.)

Generally not, except on the Boa and Boa II. To get a military laser you have to upgrade a beam laser. To get a beam laser anywhere but the front (except on the Boas) you have to upgrade a pulse laser which itself was an upgrade of an empty slot. Not impossible, but the odds are over 100,000 to 1 with the default settings. (Boas, on the other hand, if they have a military laser, will usually have it on the aft mount, yes, but so would I if I was a trader and could only afford one)

I agree with Smivs that the core ship should be left alone and leave it to an oxp to add extra lasers.

This is the approach I'm preferring, but I think I will add a weapon_facings/weaponFacings property like the one in shipyard to shipdata as well, so that OXP writers (and the core, for that matter) can define what weapon directions a ship should have. Now weapons are writable by script it seems a useful thing to be able to advise. (It would certainly neaten up this OXP a lot...)

As with player ships shipdata could continue to define weapons to non-existent mounts, to avoid compatibility problems.

EDIT: Ah, I see you already came to the same conclusion in the other thread.

[cim]

Thargoids and the law: Thargoid ships are no longer affected by most things which change bounty (setup actions and changes from Javascript still work, the rest are ignored)

Wormholes: Collisions on wormhole exit should be much less likely. All ships exiting a wormhole will be travelling at 25% of the lead ship's max speed, not their own max speed. This means one of Eric's post-MNSR changes can be enabled, so if the player and NPCs share a wormhole, they come out in about the same place.

AI and weapons: Lots of changes in this area
1) weapon_facings can now be specified in shipdata.plist (same syntax as shipyard.plist) to restrict the weapon mounts available on NPC ships. shipyard overrides shipdata if both are specified on a player ship, and the default value is 15 (all four mounts). Weapons specified to non-existent slots are ignored for both NPC and player ships.

2) NPCs now have identical laser overheating and cooling to the player. This gives them quite a few more shots than they generally had before, especially with the military laser, so their ability to tell the difference between "on target" and "nearly on target" has been worsened. They will miss more often than before, especially at long range. Nevertheless, military lasers on NPCs are still considerably more dangerous than they used to be.

NPCs with more than one weapon will switch between weapons to let them cool. NPCs with only one weapon may back off to let it cool down properly, some of the time. (NPCs are marginally less accurate with their aft and side weapons than with their front weapons)

3) The "accuracy" parameter in shipdata is now used for quite a bit more (and so there's a read/write ship.accuracy JS property). It's now for ships a general measure of pilot skill (its use for missiles is unchanged)
The Wiki claims that this can vary between -5 and +10, and it does, but then in 1.76 ships are further clamped to a range of +1 to +10. It doesn't make very much difference anyway, though.

In trunk, the range for ships now really is -5 to +10, with a default value if unspecified in shipdata (i.e. pretty much everyone) randomly selected so that -5 <= accuracy < 5 (ships with scan class CLASS_POLICE or CLASS_MILITARY, and the Constrictor in Constrictor Hunt, always have accuracy >= 0)

This leaves a range of +5 to +10 available for OXP ships to use, and there are some additional AI improvements reserved to those ships. (Well, okay, mining ships have +8 accuracy from shipdata, but they only use it to blow up rocks...)

In detail, and so far, and none of this applies to Thargoids:
- in general, accuracy affects aim more than it used to (low accuracy are worse than before, high are better)
- accuracy >= 0 removes some bad combat tactics from consideration, deals with laser overheating more usefully, sets a minimum missile_load_time (if none was given in shipdata), and makes token efforts to dodge your lasers while fleeing
- accuracy >= 5 is the threshold for advanced combat tactics and must be explicitly applied to a ship.
- accuracy >= 5 takes evasive action if hit, and will try to keep you off their six at close range much more
- accuracy >= 6 applies a larger "jink" at long range while fleeing or retreating, to make a harder target
- accuracy >= 7.5 gives much closer target tracking. They will miss much less than before.
- accuracy >= 8.5 enables "sniper" AI. It's not much use without a forward military laser, but is deadly with one
- accuracy >= 9 significantly increases the size of the "jink" for fleeing and retreating

Feedback on how this affects the combat experience very welcome. Overall difficulty should be staying about the same as in 1.76, except for ships with military lasers. Ships with military lasers will be quite a bit more dangerous but there's only one of those in the core game, and it's supposed to be a tough fight (it's still beatable, though). The danger increase is mainly a consequence of the overheating changes, which approximately triple the number of shots they get, rather than the AI changes, though.

To try out the high-accuracy ships, Random Weapons above is now Varied Ships. As well as adding some extra weapons, it also increases the accuracy of the ships it upgrades (ships which fail to get a military laser upgrade still get an accuracy boost). I've set the default upgrade chance to a quite high 0.5 in this version, so there will be a few multiply-upgraded ships hanging around...

An "accuracy 10" ship is probably about as good as a Competent human pilot, at the moment. Further suggestions for new advanced tactics are needed, to bring this level up a bit. Suggestions on how a ship which is either slower than or barely faster than the player, without injectors, and with only a forward laser, can deal with a player hanging around on their six and following them through turns, would be especially useful.

[Cody]

Suggestions on how a ship which is either slower than or barely faster than the player, without injectors, and with only a forward laser, can deal with a player hanging around on their six and following them through turns, would be especially useful.

[immersion mode] I've got a bandit on my six that out-guns me four to one, and has the edge on me for speed. No matter how I wriggle, squirm or evade, it keeps picking away at my aft shield - ain't living long like that. I'd heave-to abruptly, flip my ship one-eighty, and have at the bastard with my only laser... and ram it if all else fails! [/immersion mode]

[Disembodied]

Suggestions on how a ship which is either slower than or barely faster than the player, without injectors, and with only a forward laser, can deal with a player hanging around on their six and following them through turns, would be especially useful.

Dumping cargo and begging for mercy could be one option (for the larger merchantman, and possibly for the occasional regretful pirate in a Python/similar vessel). Slowing right down and flipping over to bring the front weapon to bear could be another, albeit fairly desperate, tactic (better than having your backside slowly cooked into oblivion, though).

Edit: ninja'd (partially, but with more style) by EV!