Trunk changes to ship AIs

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Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by cim »

The earlier missile changes seem to be working okay so far, except for Thargoids who have a habit of running head-on into the missiles. So, a set of AI changes are now in trunk (and thanks to Eric for picking up some bugs I'd included) to try to give them a bit more of a chance, and improve related areas of AI behaviour. Again, please test to make sure they're working and balanced. They do make the AI better, but generally only for Thargoids and other super-heavy ships which Jamesons would not usually be having to fight, so I don't think it should affect the early game difficulty.

EDIT: It may of course, which is a major reason for this post and which I deleted while attempting to proofread :oops: , throw off the balance of OXP set piece fights involving lots of Thargoids or turrets which were prepared in 1.76 or earlier.

EDIT 2: Better video playback

Point Defense: The main changes are for ships with turret weapons (either plasma turrets or the thargoid laser). These ships will now track multiple targets to make better use of their weapons, and fire at a secondary target if the primary target is out of range or fire arc (or, with a thargoid laser, sometimes just because they feel like it).
Here are a couple of GalNavy Frigates demonstrating this capability: Video 1 - I couldn't get a clear static screenshot, unfortunately.
Secondary target selection is mostly automatic (I didn't need to touch any AI files inside the GalNavy OXP to get that behaviour) though there are some new AI commands for greater control where needed, which I'll document soon.

Thargoid combat manoeuvres: Thargoid ships have an omnidirectional laser. To use this laser, they flew straight at you as if it were mounted in a fixed mount on the front of their ship. Well, not any more. They'll still try to get close to make you a bigger target, but they'll fly near to rather than right at you while doing so. This makes the old trick of "full blast from the mil laser" a little harder to pull off (it still works, but you might have to turn your ship slightly while doing so).
Here's a video of their new flight patterns in action: Video 2 (also note the third ship shooting down a hardhead at 1:05 with a lucky defensive shot - "All Thargoid combateers are ruthless in combat, and some may be comparable with elite-status human combat pilots.", so some of them will get your missiles occasionally)

As a side-note on this: Thargoid laser rate of fire doesn't depend on the frame rate any longer (the higher your frame rate, the higher their shot frequency in 1.76) [EDIT: remove incorrect bit about aft thargoid lasers]

Finally, Q-mines. Now, if a Q-mine is about to go off, rather than sitting around like lemons looking at the new red/yellow blip on their scanner, other ships will react somewhat sensibly, either by running away (most ships) or by trying to shoot the Q-mine down and then avoiding the blast if unsuccessful (Thargoids). In practice, this doesn't make a lot of difference except to ships with injectors which can generally get away in time, or when dropping a Q-mine into the middle of an absolutely huge thargoid swarm where the chances of them all missing it are pretty low. It makes them more useful defensively too (because most things will stop shooting at you earlier) and gives OXP writers who really don't want their big boss to fall to a Q-mine a few more options to avoid it.

Ships with custom AIs will still act like lemons until adjusted, unfortunately.
Last edited by cim on Sun May 06, 2012 5:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by JazHaz »

Sounds great, well done!
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£4,500 though! :shock: <Faints>
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by maik »

I'm on my work laptop with Win XP at the moment. MediaPlayer doesn't like the mpeg videos, so now I'm downloading VLC... Isn't YouTube the choice for videos?

That said, the description sounds like added fun! :D
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by Eric Walch »

maik wrote:
I'm on my work laptop with Win XP at the moment. MediaPlayer doesn't like the mpeg videos, so now I'm downloading VLC...
I had the same problem on the mac with the quicktime player. I have also VLC installed and that has no problems with the videos. :lol:
---

I did some tests with 1.76 and trunk. I definitely get te feeling that thargoids became more dangerous. I'm not sure if that will be appreciated as a lot of oxps add just that amount of thargoids to make a mission dangerous enough. And now it will be more dangerous. :evil:

But, lets play a bit further with it first.
Last edited by Eric Walch on Fri May 04, 2012 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by Disembodied »

Eric Walch wrote:
I did some tests with 1.76 and trunk. I definitely get te feeling that thargoids became more dangerous. I'm not sure if that will be appreciated as a lot of oxps add just that amount of thargoids to make a mission dangerous enough. And now it will be more dangerous. :evil:

But, lets play a bit further with it first.
OXPs can be toned down if necessary. In the core game though, I'm all for making the Thargoids more dangerous: one warship should be a challenge to a lone player even in a reasonably well-equipped Cobra III.
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by Cody »

Disembodied wrote:
In the core game though, I'm all for making the Thargoids more dangerous: one warship should be a challenge to a lone player even in a reasonably well-equipped Cobra III.
I agree with D on that!
I would advise stilts for the quagmires, and camels for the snowy hills
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by cim »

maik wrote:
I'm on my work laptop with Win XP at the moment. MediaPlayer doesn't like the mpeg videos, so now I'm downloading VLC... Isn't YouTube the choice for videos?

That said, the description sounds like added fun! :D
Probably, but getting a YouTube account for a couple of videos seemed like overkill. I've put a page up which should display the videos in most modern browsers (but not IE8)
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by Cody »

They display fine now (Firefox), cim. Did I see a 'Torus Drive damaged' message in there?
I would advise stilts for the quagmires, and camels for the snowy hills
And any survivors, their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way!
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by cim »

El Viejo wrote:
They display fine now (Firefox), cim. Did I see a 'Torus Drive damaged' message in there?
Probably. It's from Capt. Murphy's Breakable Standard Equipment rather than anything sinister planned for core Oolite, though.


As regards the danger of Thargoids... one warship is still not really that much of a challenge. Fore and aft beam or Fore military and it's dead before the thargons can do much to you, and the extra evasion doesn't really help. (I remember finding the first one I met in Oolite as a mere Competent pilot to be pretty underwhelming - "Aargh! Thargoid! Open fire!" ... "Oh, is that it? Hey, free loot.") Making a single ship of that size scary to a decently-equipped Cobra III when it has to also be destroyable by a full military laser burst is somewhat tricky.

It does however make packs of them more dangerous, as it takes slightly longer to kill each one, so the thargons have more time to hit you (and you're less likely to get a clean kill on any of them where they don't have chance to launch them).

OXP thargoids... yes, writers would probably be able to cut their numbers down slightly in the big fights. The ones that really benefit from the change are the Cruisers and Battleships from Thargorn Threat / Galactic Navy - the evasion makes it much harder to just sit at around 24km and snipe them to death with military lasers, the point defense makes it much easier for them to use their plasma turrets effectively, and their aft laser actually works now (fortunately, their port and starboard lasers still do not).
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by Cody »

cim wrote:
El Viejo wrote:
Did I see a 'Torus Drive damaged' message in there?
Probably. It's from Capt. Murphy's Breakable Standard Equipment rather than anything sinister planned for core Oolite, though
I wouldn't call it 'sinister'... I'd call it progress!
I would advise stilts for the quagmires, and camels for the snowy hills
And any survivors, their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way!
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by Commander McLane »

cim wrote:
ships with two Thargoid Lasers (i.e. fore and aft) will fire them both at once at the same target for double damage (in 1.76, ships with two Thargoid Lasers never use the second one {1}, which is probably not what most OXP writers expected to happen).
I am wondering about this. I have always assumed that the Thargoid laser in code is actually not omni-directional, but has a firing angle of 180 degrees. Thus, in order to make it look like one omni-directional laser, they actually need to have two of them. That's what I always assumed, because of the fact that all Thargoid ships known to me have forward and aft lasers in shipdata, but I've never seen a ship fire more than one laser beam at a time.

I think this should stay unchanged. That Thargoid warships have one omni-directional laser is deeply ingrained in the Elite lore. To see them firing two laser beams would feel deeply wrong for me. So, if by your change one forward laser suffices from now on to fire in all directions, I'd say that the aft laser has to be removed from all normal Thargoid warships. Definitely from the original one, and I'd say also from all OXP variants, except perhaps ships that are not meant to be simply variants of the normal warship, like Battleships or Cruisers.
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by cim »

Commander McLane wrote:
I am wondering about this. I have always assumed that the Thargoid laser in code is actually not omni-directional, but has a firing angle of 180 degrees. Thus, in order to make it look like one omni-directional laser, they actually need to have two of them. That's what I always assumed, because of the fact that all Thargoid ships known to me have forward and aft lasers in shipdata, but I've never seen a ship fire more than one laser beam at a time.
You know, I must have looked at the stock shipdata for the Thargoid several times while putting together this change, and looked over the aft_weapon_type = "WEAPON_THARGOID_LASER"; line every. single. time.

Thank you - that's now been set back to the previous behaviour.
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by Disembodied »

cim wrote:
As regards the danger of Thargoids... one warship is still not really that much of a challenge. Fore and aft beam or Fore military and it's dead before the thargons can do much to you, and the extra evasion doesn't really help. (I remember finding the first one I met in Oolite as a mere Competent pilot to be pretty underwhelming - "Aargh! Thargoid! Open fire!" ... "Oh, is that it? Hey, free loot.") Making a single ship of that size scary to a decently-equipped Cobra III when it has to also be destroyable by a full military laser burst is somewhat tricky.
In my dim and unreliable memory of my Elite-playing days, I seem to remember that Thargoids were liable to make sudden, short, accelerated lurches in different directions, especially when being shot – so it was quite hard to give them a full laser's-worth in one go. Their engines seemed to be pretty omnidirectional, as well as their lasers ...
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by Thargoid »

If you want I'm happy to host the videos via my youTube channel (as it seems kinda appropriate ;).

Will have a look at updating my alien OXPs when I get some time for this, to see if I can also make it 1.76 and 1.77 compatible or whether it'd be better 1.77-only.
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Re: Trunk changes to ship AIs

Post by cim »

Thargoid wrote:
If you want I'm happy to host the videos via my youTube channel (as it seems kinda appropriate ;).

Will have a look at updating my alien OXPs when I get some time for this, to see if I can also make it 1.76 and 1.77 compatible or whether it'd be better 1.77-only.
Having been testing this a bit more recently, I think the effect on game balance should be fairly small - NPC ships can track the thargoids easily enough even with their added turning (it's no harder than shooting at a 1.76 thargoid that was going after someone else, after all). I tried a few GalNavy missions out and the results were well within the bounds of 1.76, and the Thargoid Plans core mission was much the same as before too, so I don't think it's going to make a big difference.

You might want to wait a bit, though, before updating anything, since the whole set of changes (missiles, thargoid AIs, turret AIs, q-mines) is still quite provisional while any bugs and inadvertent breaking of game balance get shaken out. Even assuming it stays in, I won't be documenting the API for the new stuff until that's a bit more final (there are still some changes to make to it).
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