Corporate Systems Flavour OXP

[MEGALODON]

Hi everyone I appreciate everyone's positive comments regarding the fuel grades. I also do remember knowingthat the 7 ly capacity is part of the game's strict balance as much as the laser cooling times of the weaponry.

Now just to let everyone know I'm currently at the Tiebied medical facility my rl asthma has flared up and am in the hospital getting better but won't be able to fly my cobra mk iii till this Saturday.

Forgive me if my memory is off here I'm exceptionally fatigued, but this rule has been broken by the extra fuel tank oxp and even the super weapon arsenal at times have felt like game breakers.

But balance was my primary concern and let me confirm this is in no way a knock against the core designers of Oolite. My suggestions have been to help contribute with ideas until I become more familiar with coding but I love this community because everyone who contributes should get recognized I am sure at times we've felt robbed of our intellectual property whether it be an original idea or something to enhance flavour of an already amazing game.

One way I thought to give credit is whoever designs the model for the station could come up with a commercial name for the distribution company entity and if ever my idea of the fuel grades goes anywhere and I really appreciate the acceptance of that idea the name of the fuel could incorporate my last name Chapman "it may not be ice cream but it will let you jet across the galaxy..

Now with the fuel grading thing I like the suggestion of maybe an enhanced capacity fuel tank, with a double jump capacity so if its a 14ly tank it would give you two full refuels.

When I proposed the idea I tried to incorporate the balance of obviously if you can travel beyond the 7ly limit well you're definitely going to have to pay for it. So that I felt would cover any issues of that.

I also like that like in our world having the prices fluctuate up and down.

The third aspect of balance could be satisfied for the core designers to say that in order for a system to have this available there would have to be minimum requirements for other raw materials to even make the special grade fuel in the first place..

Based on the core commodities I would reason that this special fuel would require the combination of liquors and wines+radioactives and if it was green fuel perhaps food or something along those lines.

So for the Broonze grade as an example at that station or orbital would have to work on a formula that if liquors/wineswere 10t, Radioactives 5t and minerals or whatever recipe formula would work and satisfy everyone's concerns then those components so for Broonze 5 pts in tons would be needed for each component to get 1 unit of that grade then multiplied by inverse tech level to simulate the availability so at TL 14 there would be better availability so how ever the formula is concocted x tech level. So that would make so much available allowing a bonus of range from time to time.. (working concept on the fly).

Or it would time stamp check so for every hour for a TL 14 system it would Check the commodities if c1=x,c2=y,c3=z thenFG1=1+3,FG2=1+2,FG3=FG3+1.
Then it would update and at a low tech level of 4 would take 11 hours before the check would apply.

Well its always fun to share these with you I hope everyone appreciates the level of detail of my thoughts to maintain balance of this. I'm a big fan of balance..

Interesting as even number of available hardpoints play a role with the extra fuel tank you could create a Cryo tank. Cost would vary from starting available tech level to max but like the fuel tank oxp this Cryo tank could dump directly into your laser temp and zero your laser over heating. Again the cost of this item would obviously be high and be the least at a max tech level system but if an extra fuel tank is possible why not a cyro tank to dissapate your laser over heating.. another idea id just throw in there..
Allright everyone I gotta lay down hope to hear your replies and thanks for all your considerations

[Commander McLane]

First of all, sorry for your poor health! I hope you get better soon.

Hi everyone I appreciate everyone's positive comments regarding the fuel grades. I also do remember knowingthat the 7 ly capacity is part of the game's strict balance as much as the laser cooling times of the weaponry.

Forgive me if my memory is off here I'm exceptionally fatigued, but this rule has been broken by the extra fuel tank oxp and even the super weapon arsenal at times have felt like game breakers.

There are some clarifications to be made for better understanding. So in the following I'm not criticizing or even commenting, just trying to clarify:

Balance is of course an issue on all levels. "Vanilla" (= without any OXPs) Oolite is balanced. Many OXPs are also carefully balanced, and some balance each other out. As you say, any OXP that is not balanced may be perceived as a game breaker. People are free not to install and use what they consider a game breaker. All of us OXP makers should be aware of that, because we want our creations to be installed and used.

Now, it's important to understand that the 7LY-rule or the laser cooling times are not subject to balance. They are fixed by the game code and cannot be changed by OXP in any way, neither in one direction nor in the opposite direction. They are totally fixed by Oolite's core code, with (deliberately!) no implemented way of tweaking them. They are constant, like laws of nature in the Ooniverse.

By design and from the get-go every OXP has to accept these limits and work with them. They cannot be worked around. It is physically impossible to create a game-breaker in this regard.

Therefore any planning or even envisioning of fuel that could break the 7LY barrier and enable longer jumps is moot. Its premise ("it can be done, we only have to be careful to do it in a balanced way") is faulty. Thus, there are two options from here: either find other ways of differentiating between fuels of different grades, ways that are actually permitted by the current game code. Or make a suggestion to, and lobby for changing the game code (the Oolite EXE) itself in order to allow for flexible jumps in the first place. This would cause a deviation of Oolite from the path of Elite. In both cases (7LY barrier and laser cooling) the past and current development teams have explicitly stated numerous times that they are not going to do it.

Therefore, if you want to have a working OXP in any foreseeable time, the second option is not an option, and you should stick with the first one: Concentrate on doable things, not on things that are impossible to realize anyway.

So, to state the technical limits again: jumping any further than 7LY with a single jump (or shortening the max jump distance to something lower than 7LY for a certain ship) are off-limits. It can't be done in any way. The game code is deliberately designed in a way to prevent it from happening. That's simply part of the game.

And for in any way altering the laser cooling times the same applies. It's not something that could be balanced out. It's a hard limit.

[Smivs]

Hi everyone I appreciate everyone's positive comments regarding the fuel grades. I also do remember knowingthat the 7 ly capacity is part of the game's strict balance as much as the laser cooling times of the weaponry.

Now just to let everyone know I'm currently at the Tiebied medical facility my rl asthma has flared up and am in the hospital getting better but won't be able to fly my cobra mk iii till this Saturday.

Sorry to hear that...hope you feel better soon.

Now with the fuel grading thing I like the suggestion of maybe an enhanced capacity fuel tank, with a double jump capacity so if its a 14ly tank it would give you two full refuels.

I could easily have done this when I introduced the ExtraFuelTanks OXP, but decided against it for reasons of balance. In fact when I designed the tanks I originally only intended to introduce the 1LY reserve tank, as I felt any more might be too much of a game-changer. Eventually I did decide to add the 3LY auxiliary tank after feedback from the testers, but with a very high cost and a mention/warning in the blurb that is was a likely gamechanger.

[Greyth]

Yeah - the 3ly does change things. I can hit any space corridor and boost all the way to main station - but I like that! I can afford to get involved in a little contra temps on the way.

[Greyth]

Just thinking... If I bought a ship in a low tech backwater it's engines might be tuned for Derv, so if I then went to a high tech, fuelled up with ExooTek and then redlined the engines for more than a minute she might well blow a head gasket? As well as blow smoke

[MEGALODON]

Well I appreciate your compassion and wishes to get better. I can't wait to get home so I can fly my cobra mk iii again.

I appreciate the clarifications of the fixed rules of Oolite and I'm a good pilot so I can deal with the fixed rules of the ooniverse. I hope they port Oolite to Android. I sure would love to play on my Android phone right now..

There is a 3d space game which is elite basic but the graphics are primitive almost to the original.

It's very awkward to fly as you tilt the device..

Ok so if I made an oxp that affected price fluctuations to fuel prices would that be possible?

I have other ideas too but I suck at modelling, and coding is sort of encryptic but seems pretty straight forward sounds like it would be a lot of fun tinkering.

Capt Murphy shared a vital truth about oxps is that some are gifted at coding , others at modelling, and I seem to fall in the category of story idea or concept design. I believe collaboration with a team would allow those involved to flourish in their talents and bring something amazing to the ooniverse. As most of us know that's how the major commercial games get developed. Again just throwing ideas out there..

Anyway I should probably rest again getting dizzy take care everyone and thanks for your constructive advice

[fronclynne]

Just thinking... If I bought a ship in a low tech backwater it's engines might be tuned for Derv, so if I then went to a high tech, fuelled up with ExooTek and then redlined the engines for more than a minute she might well blow a head gasket? As well as blow smoke

1. Expensive additives (made from real snake oil) that purport to boost the "octane" but in reality gum everything up and cause your witchdrive (& boosters) to fail.
2. Even more expensive additives, sold by shady looking fellows in octagonal shops, that turn out to release thargoid pheromones into the spacelanes.
3. Recycled fryer-oil for the boifuel revolution. But be careful of viable trumble bits that haven't been properly filtered out.

[Greyth]

Your way ahead of me fronclynne, I had to use binoculars to see you. Wishing you well again MEGALODON.

[Cholmondely]

This idea has come from a discussion I had with Captain Murphy, who thinks that the original idea came from Ahruman, but nothing has been done on this. So I'm not claiming it as an original idea - however I have decided to flesh it out a bit to see if there is any interest in completing it.

Captain Murphy said:

What is missing and would make a good OXP, even if only for local colour I think are fuel scooping space stations near to the sun, with transports/tankers (which could be dockable and sell fuel at a discount) running that fuel from the sun to the system's stations. Would also open the door to little mini missions where for example pirates are choking off the supply of fuel, either by pirating said transports or by hijacking the fuel producing stations raising prices at the normal outlets.

The idea is that medium and high tech corporate systems would be the Ooniverse equivalent of Earth's OPEC countries. These systems would contain a fuel processing and transfer plant in orbit of the star. In proximity to this, would be an array of collectors. Fuel would be shipped from the collectors to the processing and transfer plant. Fuel would then be on-shipped using specialized tankers to the main station and other system stations. Additionally, the station and tankers would be protected by private security vessels.

In addition to cheap fuel at the stations, they would also sell cheap Q-based weaponry (provided you are a non-offender), and fuel tanks (if you have that OXP).

The station would buy at a good price alloys, machinery and platinum and also luxuries and food for the crew who live and work there. All other items would have no trade value.

Regarding, scripting, I'd like to base it on an existing flavour OXP that I believe could be relatively easily modified to include the different vessels and trading script.

I have some ideas for how I'd like the visuals to look and I've attached a quick sketch below of the refinery and tanker

Following on from this original post, and from Redspear's in the SotL thread, I wonder if this is a reasonable summary of what a Corporate State might be like:

•The Corporates control everything in their own systems - their own police, their own navy, their own lawcourts, their own communication services, their own banks etc. Everything that somebody does is thus known to the local corporation. The only time there is any oversight is when they are operating outside of their own systems under another government. Is it due to the Corporates (allying with Commies & Dictatorships) that GalCop will not intervene in solar systems? Democracies might well oppose this, and the other political groupings would be too divided or too weak to influence matters.

Reference: Flavour of a Corporate system orbital station

[Redspear]

I suppose that (trying to distil my ideas down to something more usable) my definition of a corporate state would be that it is one where a corporation has governance (thus the East India Company example).

As opposed to the consumer-driven, advertising battleground and potential shoppers' paradise that might be found in perhaps a rich democracy.

[Cody]

Wikipedia says:

Corporate statism, state corporatism, or simply corporatism is a political culture and a form of corporatism whose adherents hold that the corporate group, which forms the basis of society, is the state. The state requires all members of a particular economic sector to join an officially designated interest group. Such interest groups thus attain public status, and they participate in national policymaking. As a result, the state has great control over the groups, and groups have great control over their members.

[Redspear]

Also from Wikipedia:

...and providing denotation for the term has proved incredibly difficult

So we're definitely discussing a government type

If I were to guess what B&B intended by a corporate state then I'd suggest it might be whatever the Space Opera Roleplaying game had it as on account of this (third link).

Traveller RPG came earlier but (it seems) favoured generally more complex government categorisation.

[Cholmondely]

Also from Wikipedia:

...and providing denotation for the term has proved incredibly difficult

So we're definitely discussing a government type

If I were to guess what B&B intended by a corporate state then I'd suggest it might be whatever the Space Opera Roleplaying game had it as on account of this (third link).

Traveller RPG came earlier but (it seems) favoured generally more complex government categorisation.

I doubt that they spent so much time on it. All they wanted was 8 different versions of government to go with their 8 economies & 8 species. For LitF we want something with a distinctive flavour for the space stations, hence the preference for your interpretation which is more interesting than just another "democracy-type government/society" dominated by big businesses.


Evolution
I wonder how it all could have evolved? With all the lore variants talking of a recent introduction of the Thargoid menace, it leaves unanswered the question of the previous strength of GalCop. Was GalCop stronger in the past, weakened by the recent Thargoid invasions and thus the piracy increased - or was GalCop always weak and the piracy always there, and then the Thargoid came in to muddy the waters?

Ooolite.org says this:

Among the seven trillion people who are - at least officially - Cooperative citizens, you are nobody. So far, anyway. You've got a ship, some weapons, and enough spare cash to get started - and one day, you might get the fame, wealth or glory you want. Perhaps one day, everyone might know your name. If, that is, you can survive that long.

The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to. The trade ships that once safely travelled between planets now have to be well armed and escorted to fend off pirate attacks, from small-time criminals desperate for their next meal, to powerful robber barons extracting tithes from everyone who passes through their space.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.

Good luck, Commander.

Which implies (to me) that piracy was less of an issue and that the increase in piracy destroyed the Golden Age (not the Thargoids). But not that GalCop used to be stronger. Maybe the increasing wealth of the Golden Age led to the increase in piracy, which a weak GalCop never had a chance of stopping?


Piracy
So the increase in piracy is something which more could be made of. In the Lore (deeds of derring-do of the early pirates, or those who fought against them/escaped them). In OXP's (Hotrods with its gangs, Phkb's pirate-controlled coriolis stations, what else?). Maybe a mission against a gang. Or even a mission for a gang?

What we have in Oolite is disparate clumps of pirates raiding in an unorganised fashion. This is presumably possible due to the weakness of GalCop/system police in controlling their incursions from the anarchies. Can it account for the death of the Golden Age, though? The Commies, etc. have powerful navies, and presumably could have prevented this unless they were partly in cahoots with the pirates - or unless there are/were stronger pirate entities capable of taking on at least a small commie task force and then evading a larger one. Is this reasonable?


Corporates
So, back to Corporates. The idea at the top of this thread seems to me to be good for some corporates with the right sort of star (and for Stranger's World, FarPlanets and such where it can take 10-30 minutes of gameplay to get there, one wants reasonable profits), but not for all corporates. So what else might be different?

Corporate security (and GalCop) infesting the system's spaceways (especially on routes to corporate-owned sites). Lots of profit for the Corporation in selling you things (you can't sleep in your ship, everybody must decamp and sleep in a hotel in the orbital is staying there overnight). Who owns the system's Rock Hermits? The Corporation, the hermits, or a mix?

[Redspear]

Maybe the corporation IS GalCop and any corporate state is effectively governed directly by GalCop.

This would potentially explain both why corporate states are the safest (controlled by the police) and have higher tech levels (GalCop runs the stations so the more they control the system the better they can supply it.

Further, if you already directly govern approx one eighth of the 'galaxy' then it becomes more likely that you might be able to lever the rest of it into some sort of cooperative given a common enough problem (piracy) or enemy (Thargoids).

We already run the safest systems in the galaxy, so why not join our cooperative? You can still self govern, we'll just help run the orbital station and what's more we'll police it for you too!

[Switeck]

Further, if you already directly govern approx one eighth of the 'galaxy' then it becomes more likely that you might be able to lever the rest of it into some sort of cooperative given a common enough problem (piracy) or enemy (Thargoids).

This creates a weird situation with Galaxy Chart 4 which has no Corporate State systems.
It's missing a few other types as well.

Commie and/or democracy revolution violently spread over a large area?