this is amazing, what about a frontier clone?

fommil · Post by **fommil** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:14 pm

I gotta say, this clone of Elite just blew me away... it is incredible and I am addicted.

However, I was more of an Elite II: Frontier fan. Are there any future plans to support a Frontier clone? It seems to me that almost everything is there already to do it... the physics looks like it would just need a small update. As far as I can tell, all Frontier added physics-wise was the proper handling of Newton's first (elite decelerates you instantly to zero when you go to zero thrust, for example, whereas Frontier made you have to reverse thrust to counteract your motion) and the planetary motions... which should be trivial if you just assume elliptic orbits. planetary landing would be the biggy i suppose, but why not just start with solar system with several planets and stations.

the Frontier style bulletin board would allow for a much greater scope in terms of missions: plus the whole Imperial/Federation thing going on. Though I can imagine this would be quite a task. there are a lot of subtle things and i'm sure you guys know all about them

aegidian · Post by **aegidian** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:21 pm

Honestly, no.

I was never that taken with Frontier, but I could see how Elite (once emulated) could be expanded in ways that make sense.

It's perhaps best to think of Oolite as being like Elite One-And-A-Half, fitting somewhere in the gap between the universes of Elite and Frontier.

Selezen · Post by **Selezen** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:47 pm

Frontier was a good space sim, but it just wasn't Elite. A realistic physics engine is good if you want to play a space simulator, but not if you want to play a fun game.

It did have some good stuff, like some of the ship designs and the bulletin boards and the missions. I though the Federation Vs. Empire stuff was a bit cliched, but it was executed well enough.

Oolite does have some elements, like the passenger transport and courier missions, and is expandable enough to be able to cater for a whole new set of ships and linked missions that could incorporate the Frontier universe.

It's good that Giles said what he said about Oolite fitting between Elite and Frontier - it's kind of where I mentally pigeonholed it.

fommil · Post by **fommil** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:11 pm

i can see where people are coming from about frontier as a sim and elite as a *ahem* faster more gamer friendly game. i like the Elite 1.5 analogy... but there is so much more that could be put in, like more items to trade with (and more detailed import/export details for each planet), different laws (i.e. different illegal items) in each star system, a bulletin board like frontier instead of the elite F8 screens.

i haven't played oolite all that much (i'm just about ready to think about getting a new ship as this one is fully kitted and i want more hyperspace range), but i'd love it if the federation/emperial mission stuff made an appearance. that would be much cooler than adding more graphics/sounds etc. progressing the ranks was a good game to play. also, assassination missions and courier stuff was a nice way to make cash.

you guys maybe have a point... the combat is a *lot* more fun in oolite than in frontier. i remember my technique used to be "fly away to 15k, autopilot towards them, fire constantly from 8k". now it's dogfighting!

when sholud i start thinking about skipping to another galaxy? the transport missions don't seem to be very profitable and are very long range for the eagle 3, and the contracts need bigger ships. so i'm making money by trading... i'd prefer to be able to do courier jobs and assasination missions.

Selezen · Post by **Selezen** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:28 pm

fommil wrote:
(i'm just about ready to think about getting a new ship as this one is fully kitted and i want more hyperspace range)

when sholud i start thinking about skipping to another galaxy? the transport missions don't seem to be very profitable and are very long range for the eagle 3, and the contracts need bigger ships. so i'm making money by trading... i'd prefer to be able to do courier jobs and assasination missions.

I feel there may be some confusion here. Buying a new ship doesn't increase your hyperspace range - in Oolite, H-range is locked to 7LY no matter what ship you have.

Also, you have no Eagle Mk III - it's a Cobra Mk III. You can do courier jobs in Oolite by pressing F8 twice: the first press takes you to the trade screen, and the second takes you to the assignments screen. I think it's F8, anyway...

You can go to a new galaxy anytime you feel like it - there's not much there that's different to the first galaxy, mind you. Baddies are still the same, trading is much the same...

fommil · Post by **fommil** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:35 pm

Selezen wrote:
in Oolite, H-range is locked to 7LY no matter what ship you have.

aaawh

Selezen wrote:
You can do courier jobs in Oolite by pressing F8 twice: the first press takes you to the trade screen, and the second takes you to the assignments screen. I think it's F8, anyway...

i don't see any courier missions there... just passenger and stock transport missions. courier missions would be things like "take this parcel to X in Y time".

Selezen wrote:
You can go to a new galaxy anytime you feel like it - there's not much there that's different to the first galaxy, mind you. Baddies are still the same, trading is much the same...

aaawh, i was expecting higher tech levels or something

Selezen · Post by **Selezen** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:38 pm

fommil wrote:
i don't see any courier missions there... just passenger and stock transport missions. courier missions would be things like "take this parcel to X in Y time".

Ah. I see. Nope, none of them. Just transport missions. Sorry.

jonnycuba · Post by **jonnycuba** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:15 pm

Hi Fommil,

Perhaps this thread will help clarify many of the issues you raise in your posts

https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=1136

Cmdr. Luke · Post by **Cmdr. Luke** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:48 am

Though I don't want Oolite to use Newtonian physics, I think Planetary Landing would add alot of value to the game. Are there any plans to implement this?

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:50 am

It would add a lot of work, too, so probably not.

EAGLE 5 · Post by **EAGLE 5** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:55 am

If you look on Alioth.net's frontiernews there's an OpenGL version of FE2 that runs great on XP.

That said I have to say that I like FE2's execution in the sense of plantary landings, graphics (yeah strange but better then FFE) and career options. FFE was cool for the newspapers + storyline. But in gameplay ELITE is the king. The newtonian physics are an interesting concept but they put a huge dent on the fun factor of the sequels. I was especially disappointed when I saw in FE2 "Elite control method in space" under the option screen only to find out it changed strafing into rolling and not the physics. According to "sources" Elite IV should have a toned down physics system since DB realized that not many thought Newton is cool in a videogame.

I would also like to see some planetary landing / combat action in Oolite (I can think of a planetary defense from Thargoid raids). I'm not sure how the programming for it works and I can't even begin to speculate but using simple logic couldn't you put a porthole the side of a planet like that on a Station, Rock Hermit, Carrier so that if you enter it (at a reasonable speed) you'll dock with the planet as opposed to crashing?

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:28 am

A docking bay in planets? How horrible.

ArkanoiD · Post by **ArkanoiD** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:36 am

Selezen wrote:
fommil wrote:
You can go to a new galaxy anytime you feel like it - there's not much there that's different to the first galaxy, mind you. Baddies are still the same, trading is much the same...

There are Thargoids. Many of them. They are quite rare in Gal1.

ArkanoiD · Post by **ArkanoiD** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:40 am

Cmdr. Luke wrote:
Though I don't want Oolite to use Newtonian physics, I think Planetary Landing would add alot of value to the game. Are there any plans to implement this?

Agree. Since Cobra mkIII was not capable of that feature in original Elite, that was not a problem, but now we can drive ships that certainly are..

But that's damn a lot of work to implement all the surface stuff

Selezen · Post by **Selezen** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:50 am

I think adding planetary landings to OOlite would be a HUGE ground up rewrite of the system, to be honest.

It would be great to see, and would add a major gameplay option that has been lacking in Elite - imaging chasing your quarry into the atmosphere and skimming low over the surface of a world!!

However, the velocity of the ships is rated at 0.3 light speed - not really effective for planetary ops. A system of switching to planetary speed values would be a fix though.

Plus, in Elite there are only two or three ships capable of planetary transition - the Adder, the Moray and the Worm landing craft. It's possible that the Transporter is too, but no proof. The Cobras, Vipers and larger ships definitely were not, according to the fluff, at least at the time of Elite.

Also, the Elite manual clearly states that planets are off-limits to space pilots and that loads of hoops have to be jumped through to get planetside permits for a day visit. I think the same thing is mentioned in The Dark Wheel.

Still, it would be cool. My suggestion about being able to berth your ship at a station and rent or buy another one could be good for this. Basically, dock your Cobra, buy an Adder and go planetside!

If done, how would the transition from space to atmosphere be done - Oolite uses procedurally rendered spheres as planets. When going to the planet, would there be a transition layer when the sphere would be replaced with a flat scrolling plane to land at, or would the sphere still be used? I'd be interested to know how Frontier does it actually...