Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death knells

[RyanHoots]

I think you should start in an escape pod.

Once docked, you're offered a job cleaning grease off docked ships, for 0.1Cr per hour (Real-time)*, then you can hire a Transporter fitted with a mining laser for 2Cr an hour (3 Cr per hour and each part thereof fine for late return) - you can't have an Adder because you might skips systems, if you're lucky you might earn enough from Asteroid smashing that after just 20 years you can lease a hyperspace capable ship of your very own.

You'd get a real sense of achievement then...

Just saying...

*
Keys:

W - degreaser spray up,
S - Degreaser spray down
A - Degreaser spray left
D - Degreaser spray right
SPACE - Next ship

Note: Until the "ship clean" light comes on - you cannot change ships, otherwise you will be fined for not doing a proper job...

I'm sure with BGS and CSOTB Dynamic HUDs we could OXP this.

Bah. Ship degreaser? Luxury!!!!

I say you should start as an energy based entity in orbit around Lave, and you should have to collect stray subatomic particles in order to give yourself a body first.

The problem with assembling subatomic particles in order to give yourself a body is that you would die after going into your body. No oxygen. All that work for nothing!

[Switeck]

Yeah, why start with a hyperspace capable ship? It'd be like Eldon said there, seek out some rock-hermits to trade with. The game could contrive to always have rock hermits in the starting system until the player had enough money to buy an Adder, then do the opposite - never any hermits - to force the player to move up to level two: interstellar trade.

Because – in my opinion – a core part of the game is the charm and excitement of travelling to other star systems. In any case, a Worm also lacks a cargo bay. It's a passenger shuttle.

The Mining Transport has a 12 TC cargo capacity, even beating out the Cobra 1. The downsides -- very low speed, only a front (mining!) laser, very few equipment upgrades possible, no missiles, and (probably) no hyperspace ability.

[Bugbear]

Bah. Ship degreaser? Luxury!!!!

I say you should start as an energy based entity in orbit around Lave, and you should have to collect stray subatomic particles in order to give yourself a body first.

The problem with assembling subatomic particles in order to give yourself a body is that you would die after going into your body. No oxygen. All that work for nothing!

In that case, you also have to build the space suit / remlock mask first!!!!

[Disembodied]

Why do you say it would take an enormous amount of work? All it would take is a new shipdata file, a new shipyard file, a new planetinfo file, a different starting saved-game file and some serious time spent play-testing it to see if perhaps some minor tweaking of the game's populator was called for. What you propose is an OXP (at least to begin with), not major surgery to the game.

The only reason for making a change to the game's structure would be to increase the amount of fun on offer. Because trading up, getting a shiny new and better ship is fun, I would argue that it would make the game better – i.e. more fun – if that could happen more often. Therefore it would increase the amount of potential fun to start players at the beginning of the ship ladder.

One of the most important "not as fun as it might be" aspects of the game comes right at the very beginning. I think we – veterans of Elite, who sat waiting patiently for the thing to load from cassette tape – might sometimes forget that. Seriously, how many people on this forum discovered Oolite, with no previous experience, and persevered with it long enough to love it? There are some, I don't doubt, but what we don't see are the ones who come to it cold, die a few times trying to dock or when attacked by one lone pirate on their first trip out, and ditch it, never to return. The game has a hugely steep initial difficulty curve, which then – once you get your iron ass – plateaus. The player's only recourse is to either introduce artificial restrictions on themselves, or install OXPs with tougher ships. This stage is inevitable, if players keep playing long enough (which, generally, is not that long, considering); but by starting people lower down the scale – in terms of the opposition/difficulties they face, as well as the sort of ship they fly – we can flatten out and extend the game's difficulty curve and give it that much longer to get under their skin and into their dreams.

So: I'm not just talking about putting Jamesons in an Adder, wishing them luck and sending them on their way. I'm talking about putting them in a little ship, into a paddling pool, where they can have a few trips here and there to discover the basics. Then, after about 8–10 trips, probably, they'll get their first chance to buy a whole new ship and move into slightly deeper waters.

To do all this would need:

• A restructuring of Galaxy 1 to create the paddling pool, the shallows, the slightly deeper bits, etc.: a kind of core, safe "home systems" surrounded by a ring of deeper and more dangerous worlds.
• New earning capabilities/minor missions for starting ship types, so they can have things to do, and earn money to improve and upgrade their ships.
• Altered in-system travel, so that a player can fly a ship that's slower than a Cobra III and not get driven mad by masslocks (i.e. the proposed Ollite 2 TAF).
• Altered NPC behaviour to allow beginners to seek and receive help from other merchants, and to persuade pirates to let them live if they drop their cargo.
• Altered running costs for all ships, linked to earning capacity – to keep the game challenging for longer and avoid the current, all-too-sudden realisation that money has ceased to matter.

Otherwise, putting a Jameson in an Adder would just make the game even harder for beginners – which is the opposite of what I would want to do.

[Wildeblood]

[*]A restructuring of Galaxy 1 to create the paddling pool, the shallows, the slightly deeper bits, etc.: a kind of core, safe "home systems" surrounded by a ring of deeper and more dangerous worlds.

There's an example of what I mean. When you write "restructure a galaxy" it sounds like a huge task. I wrote that it would require a re-write of the planetinfo file. We're talking about the same thing, but you're making it sound like a larger task than it is.

Start your new Jamesons here at Vetitice, we're communists, they'll be safer than over at Lave, and closer to the centre of the action too.

[Disembodied]

There's an example of what I mean. When you write "restructure a galaxy" it sounds like a huge task. I wrote that it would require a re-write of the planetinfo file. We're talking about the same thing, but you're making it sound like a larger task than it is.

This first item on that list is probably the easiest one to achieve. These would need to be systems geared for Jamesons, i.e. at least a good half-dozen or so where pirates are practically nonexistent, where new players can have a little splash around and learn how to trade, fly, and dock.

Take an unmodified Jameson's Cobra III into a Communist system, and head on down the spacelane. See how many times you die, on average, even as a skilled veteran pilot. The point is to try to create a game where new player deaths are rare, and easily avoidable. To flatten out the difficulty curve a bit.

I don't deny that it would be possible to put together an OXP which creates some approximations of some of the changes I've mentioned. But I don't think that to achieve what I'm talking about – a significant alteration to the way players begin the game and progress through the game – is not simple. Although I would be delighted if you could prove me wrong.

[Wildeblood]

Well, your first step is to stop talking in generalities and be more specific. Assume you've persuaded me and anyone else reading this that you're right. So your eloquent rhetoric is now counter-productive since it's a distraction from the task at hand. We need leadership, and you just got elected unopposed. So...

If you think Vetitice is still too dangerous, where do you want to start?

[RyanHoots]

Bah. Ship degreaser? Luxury!!!!

I say you should start as an energy based entity in orbit around Lave, and you should have to collect stray subatomic particles in order to give yourself a body first.

The problem with assembling subatomic particles in order to give yourself a body is that you would die after going into your body. No oxygen. All that work for nothing!

In that case, you also have to build the space suit / remlock mask first!!!!

How do you know what size space suit your new body will have?

[Disembodied]

Well, your first step is to stop talking in generalities and be more specific. Assume you've persuaded me and anyone else reading this that you're right. So your eloquent rhetoric is now counter-productive since it's a distraction from the task at hand. We need leadership, and you just got elected unopposed. So...

If you think Vetitice is still too dangerous, where do you want to start?

Personally, I'd start in Lave, with it and a good half-dozen other nearby systems rewritten to clean them out of pirates. Then around those would be a few, slightly more dangerous systems, then a few current standard systems beyond those. There could perhaps be one or two notorious blackspots intermingled there, too, for people to be told to avoid.

As the easiest item on the list, though, I'd probably leave this kind of detail until after we had e.g. a non-masslocking mode of in-system travel; new non-cargo earning opportunities (e.g. parcel deliveries); a new minor mission or two for beginners; new AIs for traders and pirates; significant differences in equipment costs and running costs between ships (so fuel for an Adder might cost 12Cr for 7LY; for a Cobra III, maybe it'll be 60Cr for 7LY); restructured ship prices based on the earning capacities for the smaller ships (including any new missions/parcel contracts); a developed trading system, where it's not all about bulk, all the time (i.e. where a pilot of a small ship can, with luck and judgement, make a quick, albeit not huge, killing, to keep the next rung on the ladder as an achievable goal) ... to be any more specific on these matters would take a lot of work.

As I believe I've said before, it's non-trivial. If the devs thought this was worthwhile pursuing, I'd be happy to start some calculations and playtesting and firm up proposals on paper. However, in my opinion, making changes to the game on this scale is more appropriate for Oolite II than Oolite 2.0. As far as I'm concerned, at the moment this is all merely hypothetical.

[Switeck]

I don't see any need to massively redo Galaxy 1 or ANY Galaxy.

Just start in a (rich industrial?) corporate state or at least a democracy. Have a special script that removes most/nearly all/all pirates from that system until the player gets a few kills and/or certain equipment.
Have a couple nearby systems that are corporate states, democracies, or at worst confederacies that likewise have considerably reduced pirates. There can be other systems also in range that...aren't as friendly so long as their government types are "worse".

I suggest this for:
Zaonce, Tionisla, Isinor, Leesti, Diso, Ontiat, and Enoreus
...With the player actually starting at Tionisla or Isinor so most of these are close.
Isinor would give 3 nearby safe industrial systems to trade with, so it's probably the best bet.
This still puts the start somewhat near the classic start at Lave, so hopefully it will feel familiar to Elite veterans and Oolite players.
Even starting at Lave isn't all bad as long as players are told that going to an industrial system from Lave instead of exploring the system...might be wise.

As time goes on, the universe (slowly?) becomes a more dangerous place, perhaps even cleverly enough to not seem like a player-centric change. Stress more strongly that stable government systems tend to be far safer, for those that read the instruction manual. And if the player is feeling brave and goes to the not-safe systems, they've at least been warned!

A "kindly old man" could offer you a cargo contract to a safe world very early on -- you don't have any up-front costs for the cargo but you only get half the profits. For 20 TC Furs going to a rich industrial or 20 TC Computers going to a poor agriculture that could still be about 300 credits profit you get. Even in a Cobra 1 with only 10 TC, you'd still get ~150 credits.

Nearby traders and Vipers could fire their ECM if you have a pirate's missile on you...if they have nearly full energy themselves.

More traders could be willing to come to the player's aid, since once you die the pirate/s will probably turn on them anyway.

[DaddyHoggy]

I offer the following suggestion:

Start @ Lave as normal BUT, the game announces that due to the Galactic Cooperative's Trade Talks there is a heavy Viper and Navy (Asp) presence is all systems within 1 jump of Lave. For the duration of the talks there's an effective lock-down of the Nav computers of all ships in the "Old World's" Zone - nobody gets out, nobody else gets in. For the duration of the Talks, Riedquat is out-of-bounds for all Commander's with a rating less than Poor. Once you reach Poor, you may travel to Riedquat but the Navy/Galcop do not guarantee your safety...

Eventually the talks end (based on Commander's performance?) and the Navy/Viper force diminishes slowly back to normal levels, so the, still relatively green, pilot isn't completely overwhelmed by the sudden power vacuum.

[CommonSenseOTB]

I think you should start in an escape pod.

Once docked, you're offered a job cleaning grease off docked ships, for 0.1Cr per hour (Real-time)*, then you can hire a Transporter fitted with a mining laser for 2Cr an hour (3 Cr per hour and each part thereof fine for late return) - you can't have an Adder because you might skips systems, if you're lucky you might earn enough from Asteroid smashing that after just 20 years you can lease a hyperspace capable ship of your very own.

You'd get a real sense of achievement then...

Just saying...

*
Keys:

W - degreaser spray up,
S - Degreaser spray down
A - Degreaser spray left
D - Degreaser spray right
SPACE - Next ship

Note: Until the "ship clean" light comes on - you cannot change ships, otherwise you will be fined for not doing a proper job...

I'm sure with BGS and CSOTB Dynamic HUDs we could OXP this.

Anybody remember Space Quest?

How about a start like that but there is an emergency and every able body is ordered to take any spare flyable ships and engage the attackers of the station because damage is severe and the police have been decimated and even the station ECM doesn't work. This is how you end up in a ship engaged in combat outside the mainstation. After you succeed in killing the remaining attackers and dock there is a ceremony and they let you keep the ship as a reward for saving the station. Before you go into combat you have a choice of different ships but each has a catch to it.

examples:(playtesting would fine tune this)

adder-military laser, shield boosters, fuel injection, ECM(extra valor points for this ship)
cobramk1-military laser, shield boosters, ECM hardened missile, ECM
moray-beam laser(frt & aft), shield boosters, ECM, fuel scoop
cobramk3-beam laser(frt), 2 ECM hardened missiles, fuel scoop
python-beam laser(frt & aft), extra energy unit, 2 ECM hardened missiles, fuel scoop(extra valor points for this ship)


While in combat you can rescue escape pods of friendly ships if you have a fuel scoop. These will give rewards over 1000 credits each and a few may have subsequent missions attached and extra reward possibilities from grateful survivors and relatives. Every attacker you destroy will result in 250 credits bounty.

How well you do in combat will also have a role in determining different career paths. Extreme valor will result in many offers, even from GalCop itself, as they want you immediately in the space navy or special forces. Good success will boost your reputation considerably for cargo contracts and passenger hauling. Surviving means the attackers are destroyed but all other defenders and pods are destroyed. This will be a neutral start game. Also you could simply hyperspace out and you will be a fugitive for a while( say 100 points against you) and will have to survive long enough to clear your name. And finally you could choose to help the attackers and destroy defenders and become part of a pirate network and there would be no turning back(there might be a loophole out however ). Pods captured would bring 10's of thousands in ransom each. This last one would be an interesting scripting challenge.

DH, I'll put the dynamic cleaning hud on my list.

[Oathbreaker]

"it" being starting in an Adder, not starting in an Escape Pod. That's just DH's Lemsip talking.

But why be generous and start with an Adder? If you really believed in this start at the bottom idea, you'd start with a Worm.

B/c the game should still allow players to play the way they want to, within reason, i.e. be mostly a fighter, mostly a trader, mostly a mission-taker, mostly a passenger-hauler or anything in between.

Start people off almost at the bottom to give them that emotional payoff when they are able to climb the ladder and upgrade, but also let them have enough choice to not make the game boring or stale or punish them just b/c they want to do more shooting than comparing prices on spreadsheets.

What would it take to make starting in an adder a reasonable Jameson option?
*A reasonable starting sum, say 2000cr. You're starting in a naff ship, being able to maybe afford some equipment off the bat seems fair.
*Access to (small volume) gem and precious metal contracts from the get go.
*The ability to buy a 3t cargo bay extension and a passenger berth may be an alternative, but the option of either would be nice.
*Ship prices. I'd like to be able to afford the next model up sometime this century.

That's about it. An overhaul, certainly, but I don't think changing the way the galaxies laid out, adding extra missions or changing the way NPCs behave is necessary to start the player in a ship worse than a cobra mkIII. (Not that that's a reason not to do any of that anyway, but still...)

Words well written. The 100cr is nearly nothing, no matter what. Give the players some options on what to do with the Adder.

[commanderxairon]

well whriten about the adder and ship prizes also about the vocational jobs

i would say that the player must ask a quiz first before engaging ingame

that would assing himself with a starter ship and would give him a possition in the game's lore

if you are a total jackass you would be an anarch pirate

if you are a total dick (like me) would start as a spec ops for the galactic navy or galcolps dirty jobs and ocational bounty hunter

if you are a mild dick you would start a bounty hunter

if you are peacefull and coolheaded person would become a trader, freighter, passenger ship pilot

and it continues... giving you ship and equips according to how you are

also giving actual RANKS in to the game would be nice id like to be called Capitain or Sargeant or SOLDIER o.o that gives you a sence of what to do in game

[Disembodied]

also giving actual RANKS in to the game would be nice id like to be called Capitain or Sargeant or SOLDIER o.o that gives you a sence of what to do in game

Personally, I don't want someone else telling me what I should be doing ... one of the best things about the game, for me, is that I'm free to do what I want, and become what I want. But if you want ranks (beyond the built-in "Competent", "Dangerous", "Deadly" etc.), try the Random Hits OXP.