Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death knells

[Killer Wolf]

"the A-10 being the one and only ever exception."

pah, the A10's fkln gorgeous!!!!

[Alex]

The Cobra Mk3 isn't any where near a strong ship.

Really? Which of the core player ships is stronger, in your opinion? (I'm not talking about OXP über ships.)

Of course the Cobra MkIII is the strongest ship in the original set. How else could thousands of players have become ELITE flying it in all versions of Elite?

Not when your a new Jamey with no coushions on your shiney new chair. Every ship you meet is harder. Good grief even getting into a station is a major feat of dare.
The amount of my Cobby debris around Lave and Diso will testifie to that.

What I'm saying is that the start game is great the way it is. If you want to start with an Adder with nothing, Learn to fly first. Oolite is so adjustable with oxpers and a little hack here and there, (If you don't know how to, ask in here, in the BB) It remains the best game on earth.
Maybe I'm a little biased.
NA.. Tis still the best game by far.

[Disembodied]

As we're always saying the game should allow for as much player choice as possible, why don't we just have it, so that the default is "Cobra MkIII 100Cr Lave" start, so a new user doesn't have to do anything, but to have a single additional keypress take you into a new menu that allows the user to start with any (jump capable and lesser) ship, and possible even start in a different system, different chart, even a random chart/system option...

I don't say that ... too much player choice should be avoided. It makes for bad game design. Player possibility is fine: you want a Python? You can have a Python. You want a Cobra III? You can have a Cobra III. You want an Asp? You can have an Asp. But the player should start in an Adder – no choice – and has to work on up from there.

All other games with progress ladders start players at the bottom. If you don't, the player is missing out on a whole succession of achievement points. The reason for starting a new player in an Adder would be because the Adder is the bottom step of any natural progress ladder in the game. The only reason for starting new players in a Cobra III is because that's what happened in Elite (and the reason Elite put you in a Cobra was because you could never change ships). There isn't any good reason to start a new player in a Cobra III – apart from the small issue of the whole game being built around the assumption that all players start in (and will always remain in) a Cobra III, and the totally non-trivial amount of work required to change that central assumption.

If that non-trivial amount of work was done, so that new players could be put in an Adder without turning the game into a masochistic nightmare – i.e. where there was an achievable progress ladder from tiny and feeble to small and weak to not so little and a bit tough to chunky and hard, etc. – then it would, in my opinion, be a substantially better game. It would have a longer natural player progress track, for a start.

I've said all this before, though, so I'll stop now!

https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f= ... 1&start=68

[Alex]

I don't say that ... too much player choice should be avoided. All other games with progress ladders start players at the bottom.

This is not a ladder game, there is no goal except the one you make for your self. Player choice is what it's all about. Ergo the heaps of oxp's available.
Sounds like you want to be overseer in the ooniverse. "You can't have your pudding if you don't eat your veg's"

It is Oolite.

Please leave the start game as was/is.

It's lasted more than 20 years, Tis good.

[Killer Wolf]

I don't say that ... too much player choice should be avoided. All other games with progress ladders start players at the bottom.

This is not a ladder game, there is no goal except the one you make for your self. Player choice is what it's all about. Ergo the heaps of oxp's available.
Sounds like you want to be overseer in the ooniverse. "You can't have your pudding if you don't eat your veg's"

It is Oolite.

Please leave the start game as was/is.

It's lasted more than 20 years, Tis good.

well you could argue it IS a ladder game. the specific goal - hence the name - was to go up the ranking ladder and make the "Elite".

[Disembodied]

This is not a ladder game, there is no goal except the one you make for your self. Player choice is what it's all about. Ergo the heaps of oxp's available.
Sounds like you want to be overseer in the ooniverse. "You can't have your pudding if you don't eat your veg's"

It is Oolite.

Please leave the start game as was/is.

It's lasted more than 20 years, Tis good.

I agree, it's a great game. It's also a different game from Elite, and – with Oolite 2 in the works – will become more different still (torus drives, anyone? ). There are reasons for keeping big bits of it unchanged: mainly, because the original was a great game. There are also reasons for changing things: mainly, because the original was designed to run on a 32K machine, which carried certain inherent limitations which no longer apply.

Arguably, those huge limitations are perhaps one reason why the core game was, and still is, so great: players weren't presented with a morass of different options, because it just wasn't possible. So instead of trying to make a game that was everything to everybody, B&B made a game that was spectacularly good at the things it was meant to be good at. This is (partly) what I mean by "too much choice should be avoided". Limitations to the design parameters – either physical or self-imposed – force games to focus on their core gameplay. Games that try to offer options on everything end up as baggy, messy and neither one thing nor the other, in my opinion.

Elite is a "ladder game". It was the first, prime, ur- and original "ladder game". It was (I think) the first continuing home computer game which let players progress and develop, acquire new bits of kit and build up their "character". It's why it sunk its claws into us all so deep we're still playing it – or a version of it – now. You don't have to climb the ladder: you can putter around in an unmodified Cobra III as long as you like, blinking your pulse laser at people; but the ladder is still there. It doesn't have to be your aim, or your goal, but it's always there – and remember, all players have to start in an unmodified Cobra III, with 100Cr: no choice about that.

Don't worry, though: I'm not going to do anything! I'm not on the dev team, I'm just an interested observer, sounding off. There would be a huge amount of really radical restructuring required to make starting the player in anything other than a Cobra III a feasible option (beyond merely creating a challenge for experienced players).

If that work was to be done, it would, in my opinion, make Oolite a better game yet. It would be easier and kinder for beginners (because part of the radical restructuring would mean creating a set of safe and easy systems where they could learn the ropes). It would help keep the core game challenging for a longer time (because other parts of the restructuring would make cheap, basic ships cheap and basic to equip and run, and make snazzy, top-of-the-line ships – like a Cobra III – much more demanding financially).

In fact, restructured, the game could contain more viable player options and possibilities than it does at present. For a start, it would be possible to fly a Moray without requiring a lobotomy first. It would be possible to look forward to the day when you could get your very own Cobra I! Currently, if players want to get a better ship than the one they start off in, they have to install an OXP that gives them a superior ship. Then they need superior enemies to fight – and then we're on to a whole different sort of ladder. Because we start at the ceiling, if we want to expand anywhere we have to rip off the roof.

Just to stress, I'm talking about big shifts in the pricing and earning power of ships. I don't think that starting players should have to get an Adder and then spend months inching their way painfully up to a Moray. The (proposed) restructuring should make it possible to earn enough to make the first step up after, say, 8–10 successful trading trips or thereabouts.

And also just to repeat: this is entirely hypothetical argument, by me, based on the following premises held by me:

• Oolite contains a progress ladder, and always has.
• Players generally get a kick out of climbing that ladder – hence the popularity of the numerous "better than a Cobra III" OXP ships.
• Since people enjoy climbing the ladder, it makes more sense to start players at the bottom rather than at the top.
• Making the ladder longer by starting players at the bottom would have other benefits, such as maintaining challenge levels of the core game for longer.

[DaddyHoggy]

As we're always saying the game should allow for as much player choice as possible, why don't we just have it, so that the default is "Cobra MkIII 100Cr Lave" start, so a new user doesn't have to do anything, but to have a single additional keypress take you into a new menu that allows the user to start with any (jump capable and lesser) ship, and possible even start in a different system, different chart, even a random chart/system option...

I don't say that ... too much player choice should be avoided. It makes for bad game design. Player possibility is fine: you want a Python? You can have a Python. You want a Cobra III? You can have a Cobra III. You want an Asp? You can have an Asp. But the player should start in an Adder – no choice – and has to work on up from there.

All other games with progress ladders start players at the bottom. If you don't, the player is missing out on a whole succession of achievement points. The reason for starting a new player in an Adder would be because the Adder is the bottom step of any natural progress ladder in the game. The only reason for starting new players in a Cobra III is because that's what happened in Elite (and the reason Elite put you in a Cobra was because you could never change ships). There isn't any good reason to start a new player in a Cobra III – apart from the small issue of the whole game being built around the assumption that all players start in (and will always remain in) a Cobra III, and the totally non-trivial amount of work required to change that central assumption.

If that non-trivial amount of work was done, so that new players could be put in an Adder without turning the game into a masochistic nightmare – i.e. where there was an achievable progress ladder from tiny and feeble to small and weak to not so little and a bit tough to chunky and hard, etc. – then it would, in my opinion, be a substantially better game. It would have a longer natural player progress track, for a start.

I've said all this before, though, so I'll stop now!

https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f= ... 1&start=68

I think you should start in an escape pod.

Once docked, you're offered a job cleaning grease off docked ships, for 0.1Cr per hour (Real-time)*, then you can hire a Transporter fitted with a mining laser for 2Cr an hour (3 Cr per hour and each part thereof fine for late return) - you can't have an Adder because you might skips systems, if you're lucky you might earn enough from Asteroid smashing that after just 20 years you can lease a hyperspace capable ship of your very own.

You'd get a real sense of achievement then...

Just saying...

*
Keys:

W - degreaser spray up,
S - Degreaser spray down
A - Degreaser spray left
D - Degreaser spray right
SPACE - Next ship

Note: Until the "ship clean" light comes on - you cannot change ships, otherwise you will be fined for not doing a proper job...

I'm sure with BGS and CSOTB Dynamic HUDs we could OXP this.

[Disembodied]

I think you should start in an escape pod.

Once docked, you're offered a job cleaning grease off docked ships, for 0.1Cr per hour (Real-time)*, then you can hire a Transporter fitted with a mining laser for 2Cr an hour (3 Cr per hour and each part thereof fine for late return) - you can't have an Adder because you might skips systems, if you're lucky you might earn enough from Asteroid smashing that after just 20 years you can lease a hyperspace capable ship of your very own.

You'd get a real sense of achievement then...

Just to stress, I'm talking about big shifts in the pricing and earning power of ships. I don't think that starting players should have to get an Adder and then spend months inching their way painfully up to a Moray. The (proposed) restructuring should make it possible to earn enough to make the first step up after, say, 8–10 successful trading trips or thereabouts.

I think the Grease-Scraper option should be OXP-only ...

[Alex]

I think you should start in an escape pod.

Are you totally MAD? That's worser than starting in an Adder with nothing!

Don't be letting anyone change the core of a great game (my opinion, Best game) ever.

I wont waffle, I got addicted to Elite decades ago, Then Oolite some few years ago.
Because the core game was and is the best.

If you want to start a game as a space degerate thats ok, You can in Oolite.

Why would you want to play a game when you'r forced by the game to start in the worst case senario?

Oolite has never been such a game, Too many options to make it structured, That is why it is the game it is.
The only 'ladder' type game is getting to be Elite in the game.

After that; The game begins.

[Disembodied]

Why would you want to play a game when you'r forced by the game to start in the worst case senario?

Because it* wouldn't be the "worst-case scenario". It would be a carefully constructed, intelligently designed "starting scenario", which would offer more possibilities, and more room for player choice and expansion than the current, largely randomly generated, starting scenario. Rather than forcing a player to start at the top of the ship ladder, in a Cobra III, with nowhere to go ship-wise without installing OXPs, they could start at the bottom with the whole game in front of them. It would take a great big overhaul of ship prices, earning opportunities, galaxy layout, NPC behaviour, built-in missions and quite a bit more to make it work, but if it was done I think it would make the game a better one. Which goes to show just how much work it would take to make Oolite a better game than it already is!

* "it" being starting in an Adder, not starting in an Escape Pod. That's just DH's Lemsip talking.

[Ganelon]

I don't think that "starting at the bottom of the ladder" is necessary, simply because in most endeavors, most people don't. The bottom isn't really where you start. The bottom is where you fall to when things go wrong.

Try this as a notion.. Equip the starter ship with an escape pod (automatic, even), but make insurance a separate expense. Then it's possible to survive a fight that goes bad or a muffed docking attempt, but to have very limited resources. Then the player might have to take out a loan (perhaps Galcop or the Friends of Jameson org might be a bit more reasonable than the Black Monks) to buy some used clunker so they can mine and trade in-system for a while.

Old clunkers with mining lasers could be cheap or something one can get "on loan" to work strictly in the system while building up enough funding to get something outfitted to go out of system again. The "bottom of the ladder" shouldn't be unavoidable, if the player actually reads the documentation and uses their head a bit. But it can be there to fall to, if they mess up.

Maybe even leave a loophole, like the player being able to maybe hitch a ride on some other ship's wormhole. That might or might not be a good idea for the player, but it would be there as a potential for them to consider if they're sharp enough to think of it. They might have a real grudge going for the pirates of that system they jumped to when they got their head handed to them on a stick.

And if it's too hard, well they can always restart the game.

But "you must start at the bottom" is kind of an artificial ethic to force on the player in my opinion, and in real life very few people actually start at the bottom. Some find it, though, in the course of life.

[Eldon]

I had a go with a broke adder start last night (full details in tales from the space lanes).

Conclusions?

Docking is definitely easier in an adder, you don't need to worry anything like as much about scraping the sides, and who cares about matching rotation and all that malarkey? That's the up side.

The controls on an adder are twitchy as anything. Being able to turn on a dime is all well and good, but not being able to aim at a ship that's taking up half your screen because the controls are too sensitive is kind of annoying. I really wish there was some sort of sensitivity switch for the keyboard, it would make flying that much easier.

A 2t cargo hold is tiny. Really tiny. But if you can do some in-system trading with a rock hermit you'll find gems, gold and platinum are all wonderful commodities to trade in. I'll probably mod in the ability to extent the cargo bay to 5t so I can add a passenger berth.

An adder is slow. Slow slow slow slow slow. In the end I resorted to TAF to get out of mass lock range, but if the torus drive is going to be replaced by a time acceleration device then this might not matter so much in future. At the moment though? SLOW.

Would I recommend this type of start to a Jameson? Not a chance. Not as the game is now, and not with no trading ability to start.

What would it take to make starting in an adder a reasonable Jameson option?
*A reasonable starting sum, say 2000cr. You're starting in a naff ship, being able to maybe afford some equipment off the bat seems fair.
*Access to (small volume) gem and precious metal contracts from the get go.
*The ability to buy a 3t cargo bay extension and a passenger berth may be an alternative, but the option of either would be nice.
*Ship prices. I'd like to be able to afford the next model up sometime this century.

That's about it. An overhaul, certainly, but I don't think changing the way the galaxies laid out, adding extra missions or changing the way NPCs behave is necessary to start the player in a ship worse than a cobra mkIII. (Not that that's a reason not to do any of that anyway, but still...)

[Wildeblood]

"it" being starting in an Adder, not starting in an Escape Pod. That's just DH's Lemsip talking.

But why be generous and start with an Adder? If you really believed in this start at the bottom idea, you'd start with a Worm.

[Disembodied]

But "you must start at the bottom" is kind of an artificial ethic to force on the player in my opinion, and in real life very few people actually start at the bottom. Some find it, though, in the course of life.

It's a game, though, not real life. "Bottom" is maybe a loaded word here: I think people should start at the beginning. "The bottom" is of course an artificial concept – as DH's (possibly feverish ) post above indicates, you could start a lot lower down yet. We could combine the game with Spore and make players start as a single-celled life-form ...

But it's a game. We need to start it somewhere. "The beginning" seems to be a good place to me.

It would be possible to imagine other optional beginnings, including ones like you suggest. However, given how much effort would be required to make one new starting option viable, I shudder to think how much work would be needed to make multiple options all equally – or semi-equally – viable.

How do other games do it? Are there other open-ended games out there which allow players to start off from radically different optional starting points? I'm trying to think ... I haven't played many games lately other than Oolite! Sid Meier's Pirates let you choose your nationality, and a starting perk (swordsmanship, navigation, etc.), but essentially you still started off with a tiny little ship and hardly any money and had to work on up from there. Frontier let you choose between a few starting systems, I think, but you always kicked off in an Eagle. Escape Velocity put you in a shuttle. Are there examples of open-ended games with multiple varied starting conditions? I assume things like Warcraft all start you off at level one with a T-shirt and a pointed stick (or equivalent) ...

[Disembodied]

But why be generous and start with an Adder? If you really believed in this start at the bottom idea, you'd start with a Worm.

Nope. The Adder is the smallest cargo-carrying, hyperspace-capable core ship. You're playing a spacefaring trader. Therefore, you need a spacefaring trading ship.