Clearing Up a Debate Once and For All

[Commander McLane]

Seriously, who starts a career with only $100??

That's an odd question. In the context of Elite/Oolite it has many clear and different answers:

First answer: of course, nobody starts a career with 100 US dollars. US dollars don't exist in Oolite. The currency is called credits, and its symbol is not '$', but '₢'.

Second answer, assuming we're talking about credits here: quite clearly, everybody. Unsurprisingly, that's how the game is designed. And just because you seem somehow determined to build a reputation as a relentless cheater, you shouldn't assume that everybody else is a relentless cheater as well. I think it is much safer to assume that most players just start playing the game as it is, without even thinking about manipulating their save-files (and in many cases probably also without knowing how they would do that, even if they wanted to).

Third answer: the question is incomplete and therefore meaningless. Actually you start with a ship worth 150,000 credits (and no debt to pay for), and 100 credits in cash. That's a world apart from "starting a career with only 100". Also, one Oolite credit is most likely not the same as one US dollar. Depending on which commodity you compare to current prices, you will find that one credit is worth many, many current US dollars.

[Cody]

Those early runs, working out how you can buy your Iron ass can be some of the most fun

Yeah... ain't that the truth.

[Dragonfire]

Those early runs, working out how you can buy your Iron ass can be some of the most fun

Yeah... ain't that the truth.

I totally hate that part. I get killed too many times, so it gets redundant.

[greenseng]

Simply put, a dollar is worth a lot less than a credit. How much food can you buy for $2.80? A ton? I don't think so. Think of it more as 1 Credit=$100 and you'll be closer to the mark. You also start with 3 missiles worth 30 credits each, and you can sell them back to add 70 credits to your ready cash. Also remember that you have a nice shiny space ship (trade in value a little over 100k credits, so more than that when you bought it).

In today's terms you start as a multi-millionaire with about $10,000 ready cash.

If you still want to edit the save file, go ahead. (I have a comander I use for testing with 100 mil in the bank.) Those early runs, working out how you can buy your Iron ass can be some of the most fun though, and you'll miss them.

On the forum somewhere is the calculation I did based on the value of gold (since we can assume an Oolite 'g' is the same as a RL(tm) 'g') - Credits are worth quite a lot...

Edit: Found it here: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?p=118871

Today 1 Cr equals about 1196 Dollars.

[JensAyton]

Seriously, sometimes I think we should just switch the save file format to binary and be done with it.

Search for “tamperproof” on the secret wiki. ;-)

[Ganelon]

I'd have to say that I do not agree that there is actually a contention between "uber" and "balance". Uberness is an extreme, and end of the scale. We don't usually name the other end of the scale in this sort of discussion, but for the sake of argument, I'm going to refer to it as Cheyd-ness. Commander Cheyd is well known for his "Iron Adder" preference to the game, and I daresay that while maybe not everyone would want to play that way, there are few here that do not have a high degree of respect for Commander Cheyd on that matter.

I put forth that "balance" is actually something that falls somewhere between Uberness and Cheydness. One the one extreme, Uberness seeks to make things bigger and faster because the people who favour it want *lots* of neat toys and lots of power available to them as a player. Cheydness prefers the game to be challenging on the fundamental issues, even beyond the "strict mode" or "vanilla" game limitations. For most players, though, the game will be most enjoyable somewhere between the two extremes.

That is fine, and it works because Oolite can be set up via the various OXPs and etc to be to the player's taste. But when I hear someone insisting on "balance", I bear in mind that thy are talking about "their balance" which may or may not be similar to "my balance". The great thing is that we can all have what we want and we can all enjoy the game. That is the most important part.

So I vote for "balance", but I do not see balance as something opposed to either Uberness or Cheydness. I think that every player who plays the game for any length of time and enjoys it feels that the game as they are playing it *is* balanced well.

I personally feel that both extremes should be kept available and developed to allow the player whatever choices they may find useful to make playing Oolite *FUN*! I may not have the same OXPs loaded as you do, I may not play in the same style, but when I get a few hours to "go Ooliting" I can assure you that I'm looking forward to it and am ready to dive into the Ooniverse for a while. I sincerely hope that everyone is having at least as good a time playing.

We don't have to argue over balance or insist on some particular balance because it is a matter of personal choices and one of the great strengths of this game is that it can be custom for everyone. It can be the space adventure game we always wanted.

I've tested some OXPs that I felt were so Uber that I didn't like how the game played with them. There have also been some that raised the difficulty to the point where I found the game hard to enjoy or look forward to playing. I fully support and encourage both those extremes, and I have always made my choices so my game balances between those two.

Now about that other issue, the editing of the savegame to start with more credits. I have done it. Back when playing Elite, I found the game rather slow and hard at first and it was easy to give myself a million cr, and so I did. I eventually played long enough that I did get the "Elite" rating. I was delighted. For a day or so. But then it felt like I hadn't *really* done it, not like others had. I wasn't proud o how I'd gotten all those kills, I'd done some things as a player to get points that I don't feel I would have done as a real person, and I wasn't happy with it. To me, personally, the achievement felt shallow.

That's why you don't ever see me claiming to be "Elite" here. Not yet.

So in Oolite, I chose not edit the savegame to get credits or advantages (some edits to savegames have been necessary to be able to name my ship or to make fix OXP problems and etc, but I didn't do any to gain game advantages). After playing for about a year now, I have a bit less than two million credits and am a little less than a quarter of the way to the "Elite" rating. But it *does* feel like I earned every bit of it, and it could be fighting words for someone to imply otherwise. LOL

As such I won't take the "moral high ground" and tell other players they shouldn't do it "because it is bad" or anything. How can I, when I've done the same thing myself in years gone by? But if a new player is looking for advice, I can say that I personally felt that in so doing I robbed myself of some of the sense of achievement involved. So yeah, I did it, but not this time, and I wouldn't do it again. Your mileage may vary on that, and it's your choice. I don't think that making that cheat impossible would accomplish anything good for the game, and might even cost us some players who might otherwise have had a lot of fun playing.

(Before someone wonders about Carver, no money cheat there either. But Carver actually has far less in the bank and while he has a "Dangerous" rating, that character has no interest in "being an Elite combateer" as a game goal. It's yet another example of the many ways one can play Oolite.)

[JD]

It's probably a testament to the fact that Oolite has got it right that so many of us have stuck around the game long enough to want to debate these issues. And I concur with Ganelon's sentiments above.

My take on it is this. We all start with the same basic setup (well, most of us anyway). Initially, large parts of the Ooniverse are no-go areas, until we build up our skills and equipment. The early premise of the game is that we need to keep improving our ship (and skills of course) to broaden our horizons. So we progress from a basic spec to a muchly desired iron ass, which relatively to our starting point is pretty uber.

Those progressive improvements enable us to venture into systems we could previously only dream about. However, we reach a plateau where there are no further hardware upgrades. Wouldn't it be great if there were always more fearsome systems we lived in dread of entering, that might enable the core game to offer and justify some really difficult-to-acquire ships or components? Perhaps that's a step too far from the current game model, and I've commented before that the choice in upgrading our ship is hampered by the fact that the Cobra Mk III is such a good all-round performer - any "upgrade" from this point onwards has a built-in downside, in terms of performance or capacity or whatever. In the current game I wouldn't have it any other way, but I actually think the best approach would be to start with something inferior to the Cobra III. I haven't actually done a "Cheyd", but if the game had started me out with an Adder, then so be it. That would at least make many of the current core ships seem like more desirable upgrades.

I know that OXPs can offer options along these lines, and that's a huge strength of Oolite over the original game. I think the reason I eventually stopped playing Elite on the BBC was that, in the end, it couldn't really disguise the fact that you were constantly re-entering the same arena, with just a slightly different configuration. However, I'd love Oolite to always have something tougher in reserve - planetary systems or perhaps whole galaxies that I had to be really wary of going anywhere near, but which offered some reward if I could only fight my way in.

[Alex]

I like my ooniverse to be balanced even if at an uber state. I don't think there's a lot of fun to be had if my ship was indestructable and had totally outragously powerful weapons compared to anything else in hte game. Main part of game fun to me is knowing that 'press space' is a possible outcome to every encounter.
As for editing my save file, ye absolutly, though the only part I ever edit is my legal status just before going to a mil base for equipment or overhaul. Have to be clean for that.
I always start a new game with an out the box caddy and the 100Cr.
After a few times it becomes a quite easy start point.
Can't imagine how it would be possible in an adder with zero cash or fuel???

[Capt. Murphy]

Can't imagine how it would be possible in an adder with zero cash or fuel???

You've got a laser haven't you....

Tag along on NPC wormholes if you need to change systems and get a little bit of initial cash together with some very careful low-level bounty hunting, then use the cash to start trading....

[Alex]

Can't imagine how it would be possible in an adder with zero cash or fuel???

You've got a laser haven't you....

Tag along on NPC wormholes if you need to change systems and get a little bit of initial cash together with some very careful low-level bounty hunting, then use the cash to start trading....

Ah.. Think I'm going to have to try that, sound like fun.

[SandJ]

Those early runs, working out how you can buy your Iron ass can be some of the most fun

Yeah... ain't that the truth.

I totally hate that part. I get killed too many times, so it gets redundant.

It's not redundant. It's when you learn to fly, to dock, to dogfight and, perhaps most importantly, when and how to run away.

Without those skills, the game has limited appeal.

However, a bit of adding kit at the start can help; I gave myself some ₢redits and bought a docking computer straight away. It does annoy me when, after 40 minutes of RL time, something goes wrong within reach of a space station. But I also made sure I can dock without it (although I learned how to do that circa 1986).

So I suggest you do this:
- make a note of all the kit you have added for free (i.e. inherited from your rich, dead, uncle);
- remove one of them;
- edit your saved game file back to zero credits;
- earn enough money to actually buy the item;
- repeat until you have 'earned' everything under your iron arse.

You can then walk into a space station with your head held high.

Also, restrict yourself to certain rules from time to time:
- spend one gaming session just bounty hunting in an anarchy;
- spend one gaming session mining;
- spend one gaming session by killing an innocent in sight of the space station, and see how long it takes to get 'clean' again;
- replace your lasers with just the one front pulse laser and see if you can kill anything before you fall asleep at the keyboard;
- by using the impluse engines, see how just how many pirates you can get chasing you and then see if you can get them to follow you to the space station.

That should keep you busy until September.

[Grey Area]

I voted for 'balance'.

True, I'm flying a (slightly) modified Caduceus Omega - which I paid for with hard-earned cash, I might add.

But, on the other hand, I have NPC Shields, Thargoid Threat and a few other equally 'challenging' OXPs installed, which evens the balance out more than somewhat.

All good clean fun, anyhow.

[Commander Wilmot]

I voted for 'balance'.

True, I'm flying a (slightly) modified Caduceus Omega - which I paid for with hard-earned cash, I might add.

But, on the other hand, I have NPC Shields, Thargoid Threat and a few other equally 'challenging' OXPs installed, which evens the balance out more than somewhat.

All good clean fun, anyhow.

That's how I feel. I make my own balance. I fly a Vampire, and before that I flew a werewolf, but I have even more uberships installed such as the Vortex, benulobiweed inc. ships, and there are plenty of pirates flying Isis Instellar ship, I also have npc shields, tough guys 2, and other oxps installed; so my Ooniverse has gotten harder, not easier. It used to be I would have a 1/20 chance of dying when I went in to an anarchy for an extended stay, back when I was flying my cobra rapier, now I have learned to be cautious when flying space lanes of an anarchy system as now that chance is more like 4/10.

[Mauiby de Fug]

Ganelon's point about one person's balance not being someone else's balance is something I've made a few times. I aim for my Ooniverse to be balanced, which I do by adding in various oxps that make life harder for me, and numerous other NPC ships (although I need to edit their chances of appearing so that I actually see them...). I'm also a more of a purist when it comes to equipment. I have no intention of ever installing something like Ironhide, which feels like a bit of a cheat to me, but then, my Caddy's energy is possibly the same as an Ironhided Cobby's energy anyway, so I can understand why others would want it. So while I want what others would consider uber ships, I don't use many types of missiles, and I don't make life easy for myself.

I've never edited my save game to gain extra credits. That would be cheating. I started at the 100 Credit Jameson save, and earned all my money legally (although I exploited a few oxps to do so quickly in the beginning, namely duals at the Feudal States and trading at Constores). Back in my ArcElite days though, when I was far younger and more inept, it came with another started called Gisburne (or something like that). This was exactly the same as Jameson, only with 1000 Credits to begin with. I will confess to starting out with that...

[Ganelon]

Also, restrict yourself to certain rules from time to time:
- spend one gaming session just bounty hunting in an anarchy;
- spend one gaming session mining;
- spend one gaming session by killing an innocent in sight of the space station, and see how long it takes to get 'clean' again;
- replace your lasers with just the one front pulse laser and see if you can kill anything before you fall asleep at the keyboard;
- by using the impluse engines, see how just how many pirates you can get chasing you and then see if you can get them to follow you to the space station.

That should keep you busy until September.

I do similar things sorta, since I get my fun from playing a role within the game rather than just how many kills or how much money.

- There's a terrible epidemic on a certain planet. 300 tons of narcotics are needed as fast as possible. (I consider Galcop to call all medical supplies "narcotics" and under their control, since there is no merchandise category for legitimate medical supplies like vaccines and etc.) People are dying, so anyone who gets in my way is likely to die before the epidemic victims.

Since it's a life and death situation, the main station (and also those of nearby systems) having some sort of silly rules will not keep them from also being used as a source of the needed supplies.

- I'm a knight of the Feudal systems, so the people of my fiefdom need weapons for border skirmishes, hunting and etc. 200 tons.

- The Royal house has decided that there is too much foreign interference in the system and orders a clean sweep. If it's not headed peacefully towards the planet or main station, it gets taken out. It being purple on the scanner will not excuse it. We don't need police or Navy ships in Feudal systems. Maintaining order is the duty of the knighthood.

- Citizens of the county that gave letter of marque to my pirate/privateer character, Carver, have been Shanghaied and are being sold as slaves in markets in several nearby systems. 100 individuals are known of. Go and buy them out of the slave auctions and bring them back home, regardless of if the small reward will make it profitable or not. Assume any ship attempting to interfere is one of the kidnapping ring, and deal with it harshly to set an example.

To any of those "missions" there will be some consequences. It'll take some time or expense to deal with the legal status problems. The game will be more interesting for a while as a result. LOL

I may also see something interesting in a system's description and decide "Road Trip!" (or whatever it'd be called in space). So I'll just set off for some distant system and see what I find along the way to maybe make it profitable.

It doesn't require an OXP or the dev team to make a mission... Just some imagination.