Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death knells

[Killer Wolf]

and where today someone who can do a bit of modelling and a half-decent texture can put out a good OXP, that will not be the case under Oolite 2.

well i musta skimmed the thread a bit too fast becuase i can't recall reading that. There sounds like there's gonna be a lot of new syntaxy stuff to get our heds around, the other stuff sounds like it's going to do nothing but improve the process and open up some new possibilities. as far as i can tell, the modelling and skinning won't have changed at all.

I can't anticipate the ship designers' reaction to a non-dull original set. Perhaps it will spark their creativity?

exactly! I loved Elite, when i found Oolite is was well pleased, and when i found i could make my own ships it was like a revelation - a whole world of creation and imagination-realising opened up for me. That was from just looking at the standard ships, when we had no shaders etc. If i came to it now, seeing i could build complex ships w/ no vert limits, and w/ some fantastic skinning/shader options, i'd probably be drooling all over my desk. because, addressing Smiv's point again, Oolite allows ANYONE to have a crack at making an OXP, and even if no one else likes the ships they make, they can stick it in their own version of the game and get that little bit of creator's pride when they see one flying through space.

[Switeck]

It's hard enough to make credits at first in the stock Cobra MKIII. The 20 ton cargo bay is more than a bit of a challenge when the player can't afford much but food on their first few runs. Those first few runs are when most players will either dump the game or get hooked. An Adder has such a small cargo bay that starting out in it as a trader would be very difficult for someone where it was their first exposure to the game. It would take forever to trick it out or afford another ship. It doesn't really have the weapons mounts, speed or energy recharge rates to make it much of a fighter, either.

The Cobra 1 seems a better starter choice in that 10 TC capacity is "enough" starting out, though it means you couldn't expand it without buying another ship. The Cobra 3 can nearly double its cargo capacity without buying a new ship. Just 400 credits! Even if the Cobra 1 had an improved cargo bay option that optimizes what little space it has to cram 12-15 TC in it (instead of 10 TC) would give a feel of progress. That could cost 1000 credits and still be balanced.

That would be my preferred option - a range of start-up scenarios (including the original new recruit from the Lave Academy) for the player to choose from (different ship, location, equipment and backstory) which could be rated as more easy or difficult than the standard.

This seems to enrich the game without taking away from it. The backstory for whoever starts with an Adder could even have them starting slightly earlier in time, so by the time the other characters start they should have a fair chance (if they ply their trade well) to equal or better them.

Free credits along with the starting ship could also cover some of the differences. If starting in an Adder gives you 500 credits liquid, at least you can do a little with that. The Cobra 1 might have 200 credits to spare.

In any case, they should probably start with no missiles or only 1 regular missile. Those are optional fittings and there's no point in deciding for the players when they can easily buy those on demand.

[Disembodied]

Considering how often new players seem to complain of the difficulty of making enough to kit out their ship and cope with surviving long enough to get anywhere in the game. They run for performance and weapon OXPs fast enough as it is. Putting them in a ship that's harder to make an income with isn't likely to encourage a new player.

Wanting more challenges in the game is more the mark of the experienced players. I would raise the point that it might be questionable to increase the challenges at the beginning of the game.

It's hard enough to make credits at first in the stock Cobra MKIII. The 20 ton cargo bay is more than a bit of a challenge when the player can't afford much but food on their first few runs. Those first few runs are when most players will either dump the game or get hooked. An Adder has such a small cargo bay that starting out in it as a trader would be very difficult for someone where it was their first exposure to the game. It would take forever to trick it out or afford another ship. It doesn't really have the weapons mounts, speed or energy recharge rates to make it much of a fighter, either.

Starting the player out severely (from the POV of a beginner) in debt also may "raise the bar" to where few new people would play the game for long before they erase it off their machine.

Seriously, is Oolite "the future of space trading", or "the future of space sadomasochism"?

That's why – if this was to be a viable option – we'd need to make better markets, introduce other money-making alternatives to bulk cargo hauling, and change the stats around as well (including ship and equipment prices – perhaps making equipment price dependent on the size of the ship, so e.g. an extra energy unit for an Adder costs a lot less than one for a Python). Make the running and upgrade costs proportional to the earning power of the ship. And tweak the way the pirates behave, to give starting players alternatives to dying when confronted by pirates.

All other games which allow player development handle this process, starting the player off at the bottom and letting them work their way up. Elite was the first to do it, in 32K, by starting the player in an unequipped ship: but we don't have to be limited by 32K now. In the core ship set, the Cobra III is one of the best ships around: it seems a waste of the game, to me, to give it to the player from day one.

It would be a major change, of course, and would require major rebalancing in many different areas to make costs proportional to the player's earning power. Certainly, putting a new player in an unequipped Adder in Oolite as it currently stands would be deeply sadistic!

[Disembodied]

The Cobra 1 seems a better starter choice in that 10 TC capacity is "enough" starting out, though it means you couldn't expand it without buying another ship. The Cobra 3 can nearly double its cargo capacity without buying a new ship. Just 400 credits! Even if the Cobra 1 had an improved cargo bay option that optimizes what little space it has to cram 12-15 TC in it (instead of 10 TC) would give a feel of progress. That could cost 1000 credits and still be balanced.

That, to me, isn't an argument for starting the player in a Cobra 1, though: it's an argument for altering the stats, and earning opportunities, of the bottom-ranked ship (i.e. the Adder) to make it a viable starting point for the player.

This all depends on what scale of overhaul the devs are intending. Is it a buff and polish* to the game engine, or is it an overhaul of the game itself? If it's the former, where ship stats, performances and upgrades are essentially left untouched – if in short Oolite 2 will be a game based on Elite – then forget what I've said and put the Jamesons in a Cobra III.

But if Oolite 2 is going to be a game based on Oolite 1, instead, then it's an opportunity to develop things further. It'll require ditching some canonical references, such as the Elite manual, at least as far as certain facts and figures go: but is that necessarily a Bad Thing? A lot of those facts and figures were never intended to be functional parts of a game. It didn't matter, in Elite, how much a Fer-de-Lance cost, or how much cargo a Moray could carry, or even that the Anaconda stats were misprinted. Making these ships work properly in a new game, where they're all available to the player, though, means reworking their stats.

* a hugely complicated buff and polish, right enough

[Smivs]

What a contentious issue! We are debating whether to leave the Elite heritage behind here.
I won't comment on that, other than to offer a canonical 'solution'. Assuming we stick with the Cobra 3 as the start point, a simple back-story could be that when a Jameson enroles at the Academy, they have to pay tuition fees up front. The total cost is 300 000 Credits, which is funded by a GalCop loan. This fee includes the cost of a basic Mk 3 Cobra as a training ship. When they graduate, they get to keep the ship (as they've already paid for it), but have to pay back the loan once they have achieved a certain 'income'.
So when they have amassed 100 000 credits they pay back 50 000 credits, and this happens each time they reach 100 000 credits 'in the bank' until the loan is paid off. This is unlikely to kick-in until they've equipped their ship, so will not hold back a new player, and should be quite easy to build in to the game engine.

[Zireael]

Two more suggestions:
1. expand the list of commodities, maybe up to what was in FFE
2. crews!

[Switeck]

That, to me, isn't an argument for starting the player in a Cobra 1, though: it's an argument for altering the stats, and earning opportunities, of the bottom-ranked ship (i.e. the Adder) to make it a viable starting point for the player.

No, the Adder is a limited purpose very cheap ship with a tiny cargo bay and a speed too low to outrun much more than an Anaconda. It would be cruelty to subject new players to the game to it. Best to leave that "hard mode" to the experts and masochists. By the time you've changed its stats to make it a viable starter ship, it won't be an Adder anymore.

[Commander McLane]

expand the list of commodities, maybe up to what was in FFE

If the commodities market is going to change, I'd go for a real overhaul. Scrap the existing system completely, and replace it with something which is (a) more complex under the hood, and (b) more flexible for scripting.

[Mauiby de Fug]

I remember in ArcElite that there were two columns in the Commodities market - a buy price and a sell price. Because realistically, a market isn't going to sell you something at one price, and then buy it back from you at the same price. They'd buy it back at a cheaper price than they sold it to you for. So if people are considering changing stuff about the market, I'd suggest incorporating this into it. 'Tis more inconvenient if you accidentally click on the wrong thing, but what do businesses care about that!?

[lohwengk]

What a contentious issue! We are debating whether to leave the Elite heritage behind here.
I won't comment on that, other than to offer a canonical 'solution'. Assuming we stick with the Cobra 3 as the start point, a simple back-story could be that when a Jameson enroles at the Academy, they have to pay tuition fees up front. The total cost is 300 000 Credits, which is funded by a GalCop loan. This fee includes the cost of a basic Mk 3 Cobra as a training ship. When they graduate, they get to keep the ship (as they've already paid for it), but have to pay back the loan once they have achieved a certain 'income'.
So when they have amassed 100 000 credits they pay back 50 000 credits, and this happens each time they reach 100 000 credits 'in the bank' until the loan is paid off. This is unlikely to kick-in until they've equipped their ship, so will not hold back a new player, and should be quite easy to build in to the game engine.

The Cobra could also be a grant from GalCop. After all, interstellar trade is the lifeblood of GalCop. Giving away a (relatively) small general purpose ship to Academy graduates (who have arguably met a certain minimum standard) is a cheap price to pay to ensure there are enough traders to keep trade moving and growing inside GalCop space. Creating all these small independent traders is a way to create one part of the workforce that many large companies need for their businesses. After all, that's why many governments today offer university education grants, isn't it? Oh, sure, there are many (politicians) in the US and a growing number in the UK who say they cannot afford to keep on running these kinds of social welfare programs. But for Singapore, India, and many other Asian Tigers, it is has proved to be good business. It is a relatively cheap way to create the employees needed by growing companies in their countries. It is a cheap way to attract foreign direct investment. Look at all those large businesses with major offices in Singapore and India!

As a bonus, these are all small and independent traders. They are not under the control of any single corporation. That means no single company can seize control of interstellar trade in GalCop. GalCop helps ensure a situation where they are the only real power in space.

Why the Cobra? Why not a cheaper ship with more space in the cargo hold? Because the Cobra is multipurpose. It can carry cargo, but it can also fight. That means GalCop has a ready reserve of combatants it can raise up in a pinch, e.g. all those Naval Reserve missions they are throwing around. And, if, say, the Thargoid war gets much worse, GalCop can suddenly throw in a few thousand more ships into the mix. Ditto if any of the neighboring interstellar empires we never see in Oolite try to invade. Having large numbers of independent, armed and combat-capable citizenry to use in times of great danger is a cornerstone of many nations. It was something that was common in Classical Greece. It was how the Romans grew in power to rule a large part of the Western world. It was one of the old cornerstones of the United States. It was, and still is, one of the important reasons Switzerland is an independent country today.

[Commander McLane]

The Cobra could also be a grant from GalCop. After all, interstellar trade is the lifeblood of GalCop. Giving away a (relatively) small general purpose ship to Academy graduates (who have arguably met a certain minimum standard) is a cheap price to pay to ensure there are enough traders to keep trade moving and growing inside GalCop space. ...

Why the Cobra? Why not a cheaper ship with more space in the cargo hold? Because the Cobra is multipurpose. It can carry cargo, but it can also fight. That means GalCop has a ready reserve of combatants it can raise up in a pinch, e.g. all those Naval Reserve missions they are throwing around.

This is more or less also my own background story for what is happening in Elite. Not so much the 'independent trader' part, because those could spring up from anywhere. But the 'navy reserve' part. GalCop has a real interest in creating a force of trained pilots who can be enlisted anywhere, anytime.

I have also suggested somewhere else that the Cobra may not be a full grant, but is partly covered by your tuition fee.

The only thing I disagree with is the 'relatively small'-bit. The Cobra III is in fact one of the biggest ships in the original set (and I'm talking about Elite here), so it's not relatively small. Also, there simply is no cheaper ship with more space in the cargo hold. Cheaper, smaller ships would have less cargo capacity.

And it is precisely because the Cobra III is in fact a big ship that we're having this discussion. In principle I agree with the suggestion that GalCop would give away a relatively small multi-purpose ship. And that's precisely why I'd vote for another, smaller ship, because the Cobra III isn't a small ship. The Cobra 1 looks much more like it, while the current Adder is lacking at least in cargo space. The Moray would be a contender, too.

With the prices defined in Oolite 1, there is another problem for the upgrade path of a new player: the Cobra III is relatively cheap, and it's the top of the line for the multi-purpose ships. There is not much else which the player can afford for a long time. I list the base prices:

Code: Select all

Adder           65,000
Cobra 1        100,000
Moray          125,000
Moray MED      145,000
Cobra III      150,000
Python         200,000
Asp            375,000
Boa            450,000
Fer-de-Lance   485,000
Boa II         495,000
Anaconda       650,000

Below the Cobra III there are the Moray, Cobra 1, and Adder. Above it is only the Python, and then there is a big gap until you can afford either Boa or a Ferdy. In other words: if you start from a Cobra III, you simply cannot progress in small steps from ship to ship. If you would start from an Adder, you could switch to a Cobra I after not-too-much time, and from there to a Moray, a Cobra III, a Python, and finally the bigger ships.

This would require some tweaks to the stats of each ship (most with regards to cargo and weaponry), but doing so would create a reasonable upgrade-path for new commanders. Alternatively the prices could be re-shuffled. (Or all of it.)

EDIT: missed the Moray MED first, added it now.

[Gimi]

With the prices defined in Oolite 1, there is another problem for the upgrade path of a new player: the Cobra III is relatively cheap, and it's the top of the line for the multi-purpose ships. There is not much else which the player can afford for a long time. I list the base prices:

Code: Select all

Adder           65,000
Cobra 1        100,000
Moray          126,000
Cobra III      150,000
Python         200,000
Asp            375,000
Boa            450,000
Fer-de-Lance   485,000
Boa II         495,000
Anaconda       650,000

Below the Cobra III there are the Moray, Cobra 1, and Adder. Above it is only the Python, and then there is a big gap until you can afford either Boa or a Ferdy. In other words: if you start from a Cobra III, you simply cannot progress in small steps from ship to ship. If you would start from an Adder, you could switch to a Cobra I after not-too-much time, and from there to a Moray, a Cobra III, a Python, and finally the bigger ships.

This would require some tweaks to the stats of each ship (most with regards to cargo and weaponry), but doing so would create a reasonable upgrade-path for new commanders. Alternatively the prices could be re-shuffled. (Or all of it.)

Could we expand upon the standard ship set. If I remember correctly  ArcElite had quite a few additional ships, and other variants of Elite had a few  more I believe. If we were to include all these in the standard ship set, it would possibly give a better ladder to climb and give more choice. Also, we would sort of stay true to Classic Elite with "variants". It would create some extra work for Griff though.

[lohwengk]

The only thing I disagree with is the 'relatively small'-bit. The Cobra III is in fact one of the biggest ships in the original set (and I'm talking about Elite here), so it's not relatively small. Also, there simply is no cheaper ship with more space in the cargo hold. Cheaper, smaller ships would have less cargo capacity.

I stand corrected.

And it is precisely because the Cobra III is in fact a big ship that we're having this discussion. In principle I agree with the suggestion that GalCop would give away a relatively small multi-purpose ship. And that's precisely why I'd vote for another, smaller ship, because the Cobra III isn't a small ship. The Cobra 1 looks much more like it, while the current Adder is lacking at least in cargo space. The Moray would be a contender, too.

With the prices defined in Oolite 1, there is another problem for the upgrade path of a new player: the Cobra III is relatively cheap, and it's the top of the line for the multi-purpose ships. There is not much else which the player can afford for a long time. I list the base prices:

Code: Select all

Adder           65,000
Cobra 1        100,000
Moray          126,000
Cobra III      150,000
Python         200,000
Asp            375,000
Boa            450,000
Fer-de-Lance   485,000
Boa II         495,000
Anaconda       650,000

Below the Cobra III there are the Moray, Cobra 1, and Adder. Above it is only the Python, and then there is a big gap until you can afford either Boa or a Ferdy. In other words: if you start from a Cobra III, you simply cannot progress in small steps from ship to ship. If you would start from an Adder, you could switch to a Cobra I after not-too-much time, and from there to a Moray, a Cobra III, a Python, and finally the bigger ships.

This would require some tweaks to the stats of each ship (most with regards to cargo and weaponry), but doing so would create a reasonable upgrade-path for new commanders. Alternatively the prices could be re-shuffled. (Or all of it.)

There are actually two Morays - the Star Boat and the MED. The former costs 125,000; the latter costs 145,000. If I were in a Cobra 1, I would only switch to the Moray Star Boat if I were going to become a bounty hunter. It only has 7t cargo space, and cannot take any Large Cargo Bay expansion. The MED also has 7t cargo space, but it can take a Large Cargo Bay. The MED is slightly more agile than the Cobra 3 (pitch of 1.5 vs pitch of 1.0), but the Cobra 3 still has the edge overall. So the gap from the Cobra 1 to the next step up is still quite big if the player wants to continue with a jack-of-all-trades lifestyle.

A simple tweak that would make the Adder somewhat viable as a starting ship is to allow it to mount a Large Cargo Bay. I thinks someone mentioned letting it have a max cargo space of 5t or something like that to match the pirate Adders.

One more alternative is to have two types of cargo bay expansions - large and small. Large would be the current 15t, and small could be 5t. We can then allow most ships to mount the small bay, but restrict the large bay to those which can currently mount the 15t expansion. So the Adder could have up to 7t and the Moray Star Boat could have up to 12t, which would make both viable.

IMO, this would be a less radical change than changing ship stats or prices. To gameplay, anyway. I still like the idea of expanding the core ship set, especially to plug in the gaps you mentioned, but I remember that you strongly prefer to preserve the current set of ships.

[Commander McLane]

Oops, I missed the Moray MED, and got the wrong price for the Moray. That'll teach me to look into shipyard.plist instead of the Reference Sheet.

(Note: the Moray has a wrong price on the Ref Sheet, and the medical variant is missing completely, at least in the version I have on my HD.)

[Smivs]

The Mk 1 Cobra is a decent starting point (as most of you know I sold my Mk 3 at the start of the game and used a Mk 1 until I'd saved up for a Python), but the Mk 3 is a better bet all round. Look at the number of players who never move on but keep their Mk 3 for life.
But even with all the good reasons given above (pool of pilots available to GalCop etc) I can't see them just giving such a good, expensive ship away for free.
That's why I suggested the GalCop loan. It adds another dimension to the game as well, as players would have to budget and plan their future keeping in mind that the loan will need to be repaid. As I described it, it shouldn't delay the Iron-Assing of the Cobra or hold the player back, except the acquisition of a more expensive ship would have to wait until the loan has been paid off. I don't see that as a bad thing.