Looking ahead

[Killer Wolf]

what's the collision detection going to be like, is what i want to know.

[lohwengk]

One (?) more item on my wish list - allowing more limits to be set for purchase of Equipment and Ships. Right now, we have some pretty interesting flavour text on the origins of certain ships, e.g. some ships are made only on certain worlds in specific galaxies. It would be great if we could show this in the game itself.

For example, we have Ramirez's Executive Spaceways based in Lavebe in Galaxy Four. It makes these ships:
- Trident Executive Shuttle
- Gemini Escort
- StarSeeker Personal Shuttle
- Delta Escort
- Strelka CruiseLiner

It would add a lot of atmosphere if we allow certain rules to be set on where these ships can be bought - maybe easy (i.e. a high probability) of finding them on Lavebe in Gal 4. Average probability in other worlds in Gal 4. Lower probability (and maybe higher prices) in other Galaxies. We could extend this to resale values of ships, too. In a place where the ship is less common, give it a lower resale value.

Another example, this time involving Equipment, would be the Controlled Tharglets. Wouldn't it be more interesting if we could buy it more easily in Galaxy 7, where the bulk of the Thargoid War takes place (if I remember correctly)? This might encourage OXP-makers to make more special purpose ships and equipment.

It would also be nice to integrate the buying and selling of 2nd hand ships into core Oolite 2. Right now, we have to add the M-Pak Rusties OXP (mPakRedux.oxp) to do this. There is nothing wrong with this, but I think it deserves to be moved into the core.

It may also be interesting to enhance the commodities trading system to reward larger freight ships like the Anaconda. For example, discounts for bulk purchase of goods. So maybe the commander of a large freighter can buy, say, 500t of Food at a 20% discount. Then he can follow a specific trade route with only Industrial worlds and sell the food at normal prices.

We could also have special goods that sell better between galaxies. For example, we could have certain commodities which sell with a high profit margin, e.g. 10,000 credits, if bought in Galaxy One and sold in Galaxy Two. Or maybe 100,000 credits if bought in sufficient quantity in Galaxy Two and then sold in Galaxy One.

Come to think of it, the last two can probably be made into an OXP now.

[Commander McLane]

Availability of ships and equipment can already be limited by using conditions in their respective plists. As an example, the ships of Ionics.oxp were always limited to Galaxy 2, and this is a very old OXP from the times of Oolite 1.65.

The system is not very flexible, however. It would be a pain in the neck to implement more fine-tuned conditions as you suggest, like limiting the availability to only half a galaxy, or include another galaxy, but with less probability. Perhaps not impossible to achieve, but certainly not easily and elegantly as well.

[JensAyton]

A change to the way Oolite tracks position, enabling a much larger area where missions / ships / planets can be spawned without encountering the 'jittering' effects currently hit when spawned in distant positions.

Very unlikely.

Suns being rendered as spheres (and therefore gaining the ability to texture, etc).

Also very unlikely.

Support for Multiple Light Sources

The lighting model I want to implement will make this essentially “free” for ships (along with reflected light from planets and stations), but I’m not sure about how to deal with planets and multiple light sources yet.

what's the collision detection going to be like, is what i want to know.

I plan to evaluate some physics engines for that, but I’m not promising improvements.

Availability of ships and equipment can already be limited by using conditions in their respective plists. … The system is not very flexible, however

Since the legacy script engine is going away, this will need to be replaced with JavaScript. (In point of fact, the legacy script engine has already been removed, and replacing equipment conditions is Issue #2).

[Disembodied]

Altering the way trading, commodities and the game economics work opens a whole can of possibility-worms ... it's probably one area which could make a drastic (but, I think, positive) difference to the game itself.

Developments could, I think, include things like:

• The ability for players to borrow money at interest – the amounts available depending on their experience (nobody is going to lend a Jameson anything much). Possibly – to avoid players using this money to kit out their ships to an extreme degree, too early on – these loans could be restricted to being able to buy cargo on credit. But debt is a great game-driver!
• More, and more varied, prices, to get away from the old "Furs for Computers" standard.
• Occasional "jackpot" market fluctuations, where good deals for buying or selling particular commodities are briefly available (and the player can hear about, and try to take advantage of).
• Perhaps localised products – i.e. Enedzan wines, which might be more expensive to buy but which have higher profit margins on certain planets. This would add an element of exploration; we wouldn't want to create big-money milk runs, though, so these might need to be selected carefully, by hand, by the developers.
• Alternative trading methods, e.g. English auctions, Dutch auctions, "inch-of-candle" sales, barter (the method used could be specified in a station's plist: the main stations could use the standard method, but others, e.g. Rock Hermits and other OXP/OXZ stations could use different methods).

The in-game economics are really basic, at the moment, and money goes from being incredibly tight to totally irrelevant. There's no real skill or judgement, or even luck, required to make money. It would need a lot of thinking through, and would impact on a lot of other parts of the game, from ship and equipment costs to fuel and maintenance costs, but currently it's a vastly under-used, and potentially much more interesting, aspect of the game.

[stevesims]

I have always thought that the original galaxy maps with all their intrinsic faults was rather integral to the feel of the game.

There are two faults however that IMHO need to be rectified.

Firstly there's a few areas of orphan systems, i.e. islands of systems within a few of the galaxy maps that cannot be reached owing to the 7LY jump limit. I've always thought that the best, most "Elite" solution to these would be to have a shadow-galaxy map of locations of generation ships that one can jump to and use as a deep-space space station overlaid on existing galaxy maps - systems with no sun or planets, just a generation ship, maybe 64 of them per galaxy. The locations of the generation ships would be 'secret', with various mechanisms to reveal where they are, such as accepting or completing a particular delivery contract. That should be able to provide links to the islands. They don't all have to be generation ships - there could be a few other types of deep-space locations, like hidden bases (military, pirate, or mining), or even complete hidden star systems.

The second related flaw is that systems are restricted to be a single star and single planet. Some systems should be binary, or even trinary star systems. Others could be planet-less with just asteroid belts, or with two or three planets. Some planets should have moons. Some should have multiple space stations...

[Smivs]

Firstly there's a few areas of orphan systems, i.e. islands of systems within a few of the galaxy maps that cannot be reached owing to the 7LY jump limit.

These can be reached using OXP methods (such as my GalDrivePod), and there is another OXP in development that is set in these systems.

[lohwengk]

Availability of ships and equipment can already be limited by using conditions in their respective plists. As an example, the ships of Ionics.oxp were always limited to Galaxy 2, and this is a very old OXP from the times of Oolite 1.65.

Cool. Just in time, too, since I have to go to Galaxy Two soon for the Constrictor mission. I downloaded it to take a look. Didn't know there is a tag like that:

Code: Select all

<key>conditions</key> 
<array> 
	<string>galaxy_number equal 1</string> 
</array>

It's not documented in here: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Shipyard.plist. What else can we do here, that is not in the wiki, and can we do the same with Equipment?

The system is not very flexible, however. It would be a pain in the neck to implement more fine-tuned conditions as you suggest, like limiting the availability to only half a galaxy, or include another galaxy, but with less probability. Perhaps not impossible to achieve, but certainly not easily and elegantly as well.

Well, this part is only a suggestion. I don't insist on it, especially if there is going to be a negative performance impact.

[Smivs]

Having had a few days to digest all this, I confess to having mixed feelings at the moment. Generally I think the proposals for Oolite2 are a good thing - a very good thing - but if I have any reservations it's about the 'bloatedness' it may have. One of the truly great things about Oolite1 is it's lean-ness and ability to work on pretty much any computer. I'm not sure we should move away from that. I was reading only today for example, that more computers, particularly the smaller ones, are going to be using on-board graphics, and it seems likely these won't be up to running Oolite2.
Although the technology is improving all the time, trends are also changing - away from the traditional PC and towards smaller, leaner devices. Most people today will use their computer for Browsing, email and social networking, often on the move, and net-books and tablets are going to become the norm. I think it is important that either Oolite2 can run on these, or that Oolite1 is kept very much alive alongside it.

[pagroove]

I agree with Disembodied with the suggestions he made on improvements to the trade system
I support Cmd Cheyd so far in saying that we must do something to the sun to make it less flat looking.

wishlist:

- Save everywhere
- Better passenger system with support for group cabins.
- crews for bigships
- a realistic system for measuring how much equipment one can fit within a certain volume taking the Cobra M3 as standard
- Multiplanet systems with multiple spaceways. Deepspace pirates/traders out of the spaceways.

[Zireael]

Altering the way trading, commodities and the game economics work opens a whole can of possibility-worms ... it's probably one area which could make a drastic (but, I think, positive) difference to the game itself.

Developments could, I think, include things like:

• The ability for players to borrow money at interest – the amounts available depending on their experience (nobody is going to lend a Jameson anything much). Possibly – to avoid players using this money to kit out their ships to an extreme degree, too early on – these loans could be restricted to being able to buy cargo on credit. But debt is a great game-driver!
• More, and more varied, prices, to get away from the old "Furs for Computers" standard.
• Occasional "jackpot" market fluctuations, where good deals for buying or selling particular commodities are briefly available (and the player can hear about, and try to take advantage of).
• Perhaps localised products – i.e. Enedzan wines, which might be more expensive to buy but which have higher profit margins on certain planets. This would add an element of exploration; we wouldn't want to create big-money milk runs, though, so these might need to be selected carefully, by hand, by the developers.
• Alternative trading methods, e.g. English auctions, Dutch auctions, "inch-of-candle" sales, barter (the method used could be specified in a station's plist: the main stations could use the standard method, but others, e.g. Rock Hermits and other OXP/OXZ stations could use different methods).

The in-game economics are really basic, at the moment, and money goes from being incredibly tight to totally irrelevant. There's no real skill or judgement, or even luck, required to make money. It would need a lot of thinking through, and would impact on a lot of other parts of the game, from ship and equipment costs to fuel and maintenance costs, but currently it's a vastly under-used, and potentially much more interesting, aspect of the game.

First point - touched upon in Black Monks OXP, but too little variety.
Second & third & fifth - I agree wholeheartedly!
Fluctuations are in Bloomberg Markets OXP.
The last point is I think not so good, but maybe...

The second related flaw is that systems are restricted to be a single star and single planet. Some systems should be binary, or even trinary star systems. Others could be planet-less with just asteroid belts, or with two or three planets. Some planets should have moons. Some should have multiple space stations...

That's done in FFE and we could have a look at it regarding Lave-Zaonce-Tionisla, for example.

@ pagroove: Seconded entirely. Realistic fitting system is there in FFE too, as an inspiration.

[JensAyton]

Having had a few days to digest all this, I confess to having mixed feelings at the moment. Generally I think the proposals for Oolite2 are a good thing - a very good thing - but if I have any reservations it's about the 'bloatedness' it may have. One of the truly great things about Oolite1 is it's lean-ness and ability to work on pretty much any computer. I'm not sure we should move away from that. I was reading only today for example, that more computers, particularly the smaller ones, are going to be using on-board graphics, and it seems likely these won't be up to running Oolite2.

What do you base that on? There are phones today which fulfil the intended graphics requirements for Oolite 2 (and, again, it will be the default version of Oolite for years, probably forever). This isn’t cutting edge stuff we’re talking about.

[Smivs]

It's just that reading your original post the impression I got was that the hardware requirements were going to increase, and my concern is that Oolite2 was going to be aimed at those with serious gaming machines, and lesser equipment may not cope with it too well.
My current PC which has a good over-all spec (quad-core with 4GB RAM but on-board graphics accelerator) cannot handle shaders, and can't even cope with 'big' textures without killing the frame-rate. I have to use the Standard-def version of my own shipset because it can't take the load the HD edition puts on it!
Many of the next generation netbooks etc will have a similar, perhaps not so good spec, and I'm just concerned that Oolite2 might become the domain only of those who have top-spec equipment.
If, as you say even some of todays phones could cope, well and good.
I'm not being negative - Oolite2 sounds excellent and much of what you have said is exciting - I just want to be content that anybody with any computer is going to be able to enjoy it.

[JensAyton]

It's just that reading your original post the impression I got was that the hardware requirements were going to increase, and my concern is that Oolite2 was going to be aimed at those with serious gaming machines, and lesser equipment may not cope with it too well.

I was quite explicit about this in the original post. The requirements will not be high, but they will be higher.

Support for shaders is not top-spec. It’s baseline. Operating systems are designed on the assumption that they’re there. Phones support them. The versions of OpenGL that don’t require shaders have been deprecated for five years.

If someone sells you a new computer today – not a gaming computer, any computer – without shader support, they are selling you rubbish. Intel’s X3000 GPU (from 2006) supports OpenGL 2.0. So do Nvidia’s nForce 600 series (from 2007) and later chipsets. The only excuse for selling such complete rubbish is that it’s a cheap netbook, where complete rubbishness is part of the expected trade-off, and expecting a game released two years or more from now to work on today’s cheap netbook is not reasonable. Failing to work on such a system is not top spec. Doing large amounts of extra work to support such a system is nowhere near a reasonable allocation of effort.

And, again, 1.7x will continue to exist.

[drew]

Another vote (or hand held up, or whatever) for 3D stars/suns.

Cheers,

Drew.