Oolite for sale on ebay

[Fatleaf]

If I remember correctly, any questions that are asked are added to the bottom of the auction for other 'bidders' to be able to read also... Subtle, but hopefully effective.

They only get posted if the seller chooses to show them. So the chances of that happening...

[CheeseRedux]

I may have done a bad thing...

Yes, if our aim is to stay as far below the radar as possible, you may have done a bad thing.


I've had a peek at the page, and it appears it sells in batches of 10. The second, so far untouched, batch:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Space-Combat-and- ... 27b896f46e


I've never entered the wild and wonderful world of ebay, so I've no clue ho things work in there. Is it possible to contact the people who've bought the game and left (positive) reviews? If so, might I suggest making up a nice & polite letter and send to them all?
Including the following information (not necessarily in this order):
- While the Oolite GPL license means it's not illegal to put it on a CD and sell it, the game can actually be had for free.
- The free game is currently on version 1.75, making the version they bought obsolescent.
- The addons included may have a different license than the game itself, making them illegal to sell.
- However, the addons can also all be had for free. (I'm using the term "addons" instead of "OXP" deliberately, btw.)
- Ask for a list of the included addons, so that their authors may be made aware of the potentially illegal use of their work.
- Links to the 1.75 download, the Oolite Wiki and this thread on the forum.
With any luck, a sufficient number of people will not be particularly pleased when they find out they've been had, and the current 99.2% positive feedback goes down the drain.

If nothing else, it provides the opportunity for the buyers to update their purchase and maybe get some more OXPs...

[Cmdr Radan]

what about the images he's used to illustrate the game?

are they intellectual property or something?

Just a thought, If you can't stop it for the right reasons, look for another angle?

[drew]

Guys, we need to have a serious, reasoned and planned response to this. I don't see the problem as being with CD versions of Oolite on ebay, or fan-fiction on Amazon, or debates on the merits or not of GPL.

The problem is "If we 'the community' are perceived to be attempting to make money out of the Elite franchise" we're dicing with fire from the likes of David Braben.

My suggestion would be the same as our approach with spammers; locate, identity, nail and get them taken off air. This is what I did with Amazon.

Raising our profile with £ or $ attached will do us no favours.

Cheers,

Drew.

[Killer Wolf]

just asked him a question if he feels like a scumbag for ripping people off. i know i didn't do all my hard work so that other people can make money off it, therefore i agree w/ Drew, we should get a proper discussion drawn up and at the very least set the game licence up so that it's free to distribute but not sell - if that isn't how it is already, of course. and if it is, that seller needs to be pulled, but don't expect ebay to fall over themselves to help us.

[Commander McLane]

And perhaps someone has to order the CD in the first place, and examine which OXPs are included, and what their licenses are. Otherwise it's just guessing.

[TGHC]

A lot of you guys have websites, is it not possible to swamp the net with FREE OOLITE DOWNLOAD links evrywhere

[Smivs]

I have reported this item, as like most of us I find this at best distasteful.
ebay's reporting system seems to be extremely limited, but eventually my report was filed on the grounds that the item may infringe Intellectual Property rights and could be in contravention of GPL and CC licenses.
Whether this will have any effect or not remains to be seen.

[aegidian]

The GPL license for Oolite (the software) gives us the status of being freeware, with many open-source accreditation benefits. But, yes, properly free (as in speech) software can be resold commercially, it's one of the freedoms conferred as part of the license.

For a few years Oolite wasn't licensed this way as I was concerned about people making money from it. Now that's actually happening, I'm not worried by it and would prefer that not so much fuss is made about it.

Conversely: Many of the OXPs and much of the artwork attached to Oolite is not intended for commercial reuse and is licensed appropriately (CC NC-BY-SA).

However, a person can distribute those works for free alongside a commercial copy of Oolite provided that it's clear that they are not charging for the OXPs and artwork, that the rights to them are held by the people who created them and that the works can be shared under those same terms. Essentially he has to distribute a copy of the licences for the artwork and OXPs to make this clear.

In short, the guy reselling Oolite on ebay doesn't appear to be doing anything wrong. So, please, don't pester him on my behalf.

On the gripping hand: we could package Oolite for sale on CD better than this (in Windows, Mac and Linux formats, with some actual boxes and decent art and a printed cheat-sheet.) I'm all for doing that, and charging an appropriate amount to make it worthwhile in terms of time and hassle for the reseller, but what do you think?

[Thargoid]

As a thought, perhaps could 1.76 come with a welcome splash screen that only appears on first run, which details the fact that the game is free, available from the net and with details of the license etc?

I guess that may be difficult without some sort of checking on the registry or whatever, although iirc there are files absent on very first run that are created and their presence/absence could maybe be checked for as a first run flag?

Either that and/or have such information somewhere very conspicuous in the documentation, or even as part of the installer of the game (maybe a similar welcome screen to that described above)?

Having purchasers suddenly become aware that they've paid for something that is free should be self-limiting on eBay sales through feedback. But the license of Oolite itself does allow for this kind of thing, as has been said by others here.

[Gimi]

On the gripping hand: we could package Oolite for sale on CD better than this (in Windows, Mac and Linux formats, with some actual boxes and decent art and a printed cheat-sheet.) I'm all for doing that, and charging an appropriate amount to make it worthwhile in terms of time and hassle for the reseller, but what do you think?

While technically legal to do so, I think this is a very bad idea. We are very close to the situation Elite TNK found itself in when it was taken down. There are fundamental differences, but there are also quite a few similarities as has been discussed in other threads on this board earlier. I truly believe that Oolite will be left alone as long as it remains free and is not offered in a commercial context. It may even survive 3rd party rip-offs like the one on e-bay. However, if this community start selling, I suspect we will be in trouble. I understand it will be more of a "non profit - cover cost" thing, but we are still stepping into a very grey area.

[Zireael]

I think Oolite should be kept free...

[Cmdr Radan]

I'm not quallified to comment, but, you could look into selling "actual boxes and decent art and a printed cheat-sheet" and attatching the 'game' for free?

I'm guessing the legal repercussions of that would be dodgy at best.

[aegidian]

I think Oolite should be kept free...

It is, and always will be. But one freedom offered by Oolite's license is the freedom to resell it. And I'm for keeping that freedom too.

We are very close to the situation Elite TNK found itself in when it was taken down. There are fundamental differences...

There certainly are, E-TNK was victim to a developer trying to assert that they were the creators of the game and holders of sole rights to distribute it commercially (in the pocket PC format). Their ill-conceived EULA was what prompted Frontier Development's lawyers to take action.

The ebay resellers of free software (and there are many like this guy) don't put themselves in this position, it would be very bad for their business if they did.

And again, what this person is doing is not a 'rip off', it's legitimate even if some people find it distasteful.


Drew's right. This demands debate as to what an appropriate response should be.

I think that if you find what the guy's doing deserves a response, then in my opinion the most appropriate one is to offer something better.

[Smivs]

I tend to agree with Aegidian and Gimi on this. Yes, it's annoying that someone is trying to make a buck on the back of Oolite, but it seems that they are probably not acting illegally, and indeed might be indirectly promoting the game in ways they could not foresee.
The general climate suggests that continuing to keep a low profile is wise, so I'm minded to think we should let this go quietly. A report has been made to ebay, and if their investigations lead to this item being withdrawn, well and good, and if not, so be it.
I wonder if Fatleaf's listing should be removed as well? Certainly using LG Software's picture is a bit dodgy.
As to supplying cost-price DVDs ourselves, this might be worth looking into. The obvious question is, who wants to do it?