new missions Wiki page

[Commander McLane]

I just stumbled across the new missions page on the Wiki:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Oolite_Missions

For comparison here's the traditional one:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Oolite_Missions_Old

I have to say, I like the old one better, and I don't find the new one more usable. Happy as I am with the new OXP table, I don't think that a table is the best way to present everything, and I find the table with the missions a good illustration of that.

For me it contains too much information in too little space, which makes it more confusing than helpful. The traditional page presents the available missions one by one, and I'd say that's the adequate way to present them, because usually a player will play them one by one. It's simply not necessary to have quick glances to the lines above and below in the table, which you would usually do if taking information from a table. On top of that, you even run the risk spoiling a mission you haven't yet installed by reading about it too much too early. Actually you're not only running the risk, but simply can't avoid it, if the information is presented as condensed as in a table.

That's the reason why the old page contains not one, but two lists. The first one is for a quick overview of the available missions, and in case of OXP missions their download locations. The second, completely independent one is for requirements, which you may choose not to know about, because they do contain spoilers of a sort. Although it's clear that the page is already broken in that respect: the OXP part of the first list doesn't exist anymore and is replaced by a link to the OXP list. But when everything is put into just one table, you don't even have a chance to limit your information intake, especially as the local requirements ("you have to be docked at station xyz") didn't get a column of their own, but you're forced to read through everything in order to get them.

The old page is very elegant in that respect. As every mission is represented by a subtitle, you can simply click on the mission you're interested in on the table of contents, and jump directly to its entry. No need to even scroll and read anything in-between. And the information is presented briefly and consisely, with bullet points one below the other, which is a good way to sort information, much better than columns of a table.

Finally I like that native and OXP missions are clearly distinguished on the old page. At the very least, if everything has to be presented in a table, there should be two independent tables, one for native missions and one for OXP.

That's—as always—my personal view and impression. I just thought I should write them down, because there is already a nasty box on the top of the old page (by the way, I seem to remember that it was mentioned once that it's extremely difficult to really delete a page from the Elite Wiki due to copyright issues; you would basically need the consent of everybody who ever contributed to that page), and I think that at the present state the page is much better than the proposed replacement page.

[Thargoid]

I would agree that there's little need for the fancy tabulation (except perhaps sorting by required minimum kill count, and that's easy to do anyway without the fancy coding by fixed sections). The spoiler risk is certainly higher in the new version.

But that said I've never considered the page at all in the past, and it's not me who added the information on my mission OXPs into it (and the entry for TCAT for example makes no sense at all in the line about docking). And quite why Ring Racer seems to have appeared in the new list I don't know, it's not exactly a mission.

Yet again I'd question having yet another wiki page to update if we write an OXP. It's beginning to get beyond a joke how much "admin" is needed, to the point of wondering about bothering at all with wiki entries other than the main list.

[Cmd. Cheyd]

Yet again I'd question having yet another wiki page to update if we write an OXP. It's beginning to get beyond a joke how much "admin" is needed, to the point of wondering about bothering at all with wiki entries other than the main list.

Hence why I have never bothered with Wiki entries for my OXPs and do it all through my own site.

[mcarans]

It's maik who created that page and I found it useful myself. I wanted to install all OXP missions in G1 while I was in G1 so I just sorted on "Start". Now I'm in G2, I will do the same again. With the old page, I'd have to read through the whole thing.

[maik]

I just stumbled across the new missions page on the Wiki

The new page has been around for quite some time, see the BB thread. I created it because I wanted to sort by starting point.

On top of that, you even run the risk spoiling a mission you haven't yet installed by reading about it too much too early. Actually you're not only running the risk, but simply can't avoid it, if the information is presented as condensed as in a table.

Good point. Having two lists creates more update effort of course, but you're right about the spoilers.

I've never considered the page at all in the past ... Yet again I'd question having yet another wiki page to update if we write an OXP. It's beginning to get beyond a joke how much "admin" is needed, to the point of wondering about bothering at all with wiki entries other than the main list.

In 2009 you actually added Aquatics and Lave Academy yourself to the old one (which existed since 2006)...

And quite why Ring Racer seems to have appeared in the new list I don't know, it's not exactly a mission.

It seems to fit in with Lave Academy, doesn't it? But you're right, I'd suggest taking both of them out of the list.

[maik]

by the way, I seem to remember that it was mentioned once that it's extremely difficult to really delete a page from the Elite Wiki due to copyright issues; you would basically need the consent of everybody who ever contributed to that page

This is a quote from just above the edit box on the Wiki:

Please note that all contributions to Elite Wiki may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then do not submit it here.

IANAL, but note that it says "removed", not "retired to the Wiki's history".

[Thargoid]

So I did. I have seen the page before, but not one I use nor have seen lately - hence my forgetting about it.

LA can stay in the list, as that's as much a mission as the trumbles native one is. But RR certainly isn't a mission, as it has no real challenge (aside from getting the best time you can) and no reward.

It's still yet more work, in either format, though. And given we can now sort the OXP list by category including one for mission OXPs, it's arguably a completely redundant page overall.

[maik]

LA can stay in the list, as that's as much a mission as the trumbles native one is. But RR certainly isn't a mission, as it has no real challenge (aside from getting the best time you can) and no reward.

I don't mind either way. Haven't played one or the other and can certainly take out RR.

And given we can now sort the OXP list by category including one for mission OXPs, it's arguably a completely redundant page overall.

We'd lose information on native missions and the additional information about requirements and starting point, the sortability of the latter prompting me to create the new tabled list in the first place.

[maik]

That's the reason why the old page contains not one, but two lists. The first one is for a quick overview of the available missions, and in case of OXP missions their download locations. The second, completely independent one is for requirements, which you may choose not to know about, because they do contain spoilers of a sort. Although it's clear that the page is already broken in that respect: the OXP part of the first list doesn't exist anymore and is replaced by a link to the OXP list. But when everything is put into just one table, you don't even have a chance to limit your information intake, especially as the local requirements ("you have to be docked at station xyz") didn't get a column of their own, but you're forced to read through everything in order to get them.

Suggestion:
* Remove the two columns Kills and Other Requirements
* Remove information about local requirements from the description
* Add a column that only contains a link to the OXP's requirements further down on the same page
* Add requirements sections for each OXP below the table including the local requirements

That way we get
* a table that is still sortable by name and by starting galaxy (I could add another column native vs OXP to be also able to separate these
* separation between this table and mission requirements which can be considered spoilers
* the sortable table as an index to the requirements

If I don't miss anything then this would combine the benefits of the old mission overview before the first list was removed with the benefits of the current table. We lose the option to sort by kills though.

Good?

[CheeseRedux]

From a purely personal perspective, I like to stumble upon the missions as much as possible. Ideally, that means just putting them in the OXP folder and forget about them.
As some missions can slow down performance with script checking, and all OXP missions will increase startup time, I've compromised by sorting them by Galaxy, so they're easy to add & remove.
On the other hand, having at least the trigger conditions for all missions available is a good thing in case someone is about to leave a Galaxy and wants to complete all the missions first, so that they don't need to go full circle to do them later.

I've no clue about Wiki mechanics, but one possible solution could be to make spoilers beyond Galaxy # hidden so that you need to actively do something to see it, like highlighting the text, or sumthin'?

[Commander McLane]

@ maik: It is clear that the table can be improved, and I think your ideas for that go into the right direction.

However, having said that, I still think that a table is the inferior format for presenting missions in the first place. For me an ordinary list like on the "old" page makes much more sense, and personally I would rather spend some thoughts on improving that list. (That's not a promise, though.)

[maik]

one possible solution could be to make spoilers beyond Galaxy # hidden so that you need to actively do something to see it, like highlighting the text, or sumthin'?

That would be the idea of moving them outside of and below the table, so they do stay on the same page but you need to click a link (or scroll down beyond the table) to see them.

[maik]

@ maik: It is clear that the table can be improved, and I think your ideas for that go into the right direction.

However, having said that, I still think that a table is the inferior format for presenting missions in the first place. For me an ordinary list like on the "old" page makes much more sense, and personally I would rather spend some thoughts on improving that list. (That's not a promise, though.)

I still think that a table has merits because different people care about different sort criteria. I created a section in the Sandbox to illustrate.

[mcarans]

Rather than having the "Req's" links, why not make the Mission links point to where the "Req's" point to at the moment (ie. to the info further down the page about each mission)?

The link to any wiki page about the mission can be from down there (or if authors want optionally in the Description column as well). Just a thought.

[Commander McLane]

Rather than having the "Req's" links, why not make the Mission links point to where the "Req's" point to at the moment (ie. to the info further down the page about each mission)?

The link to any wiki page about the mission can be from down there (or if authors want optionally in the Description column as well). Just a thought.

The basic idea behind keeping the requirements as seperate as possible from the general mission info is that a user may not want to see the requirements, only the name of the mission with perhaps some basic description.

Knowing the requirements for a mission is in itself a spoiler, and some people don't want these spoilers, they want the missions to kick in by surprise.