Antiubericity

[Cmdr James]

The key difference is between providing new options which are balanced, or providing something which is all upside and no down.

The rusties make the game easier, by allowing a different carear strategy, but the ships themselves are not that wonderful.

Ships like the ferrari truck are different in that they are just better than most other ships. If a ship is faster, then it should be limited somewhere else. Super fast highly armed ships might carry no cargo at all -- a major disadvantage but that balances the major advatages in speed.

Of course it is all down to personal choice, and I dont think anyone objects to the existance of overpowered OXPs, but the point stands that there is a big difference between balanced and unbalanced OXPs.

I guess its worth saying that there are ingame imbalances too. The cloaking device is pretty much a game ending benefit, as it more or less makes the player immortal.

[another_commander]

I guess its worth saying that there are ingame imbalances too. The cloaking device is pretty much a game ending benefit, as it more or less makes the player immortal.

I believe this is easy to fix, if we decide to set passive cloak to ON as default for all ships.

[Disembodied]

I guess its worth saying that there are ingame imbalances too. The cloaking device is pretty much a game ending benefit, as it more or less makes the player immortal.

Might it be worth not making all inbound missiles explode when you activate the cloak, too? Instead, they could just keep going in a straight line when the player cloaks. That way, at least the player has to dodge out of the way of any inbound ordnance, instead of having a 100% successful ECM ...

[Smivs]

I rarely use my cloak strategically, but as a tactical ECM it does get a lot of use. It does feel a bit like cheating. Could it not be modified to cause the missile to lose its lock when the cloak is active, but not causing the missile to explode, and then it can re-find its lock on you when you de-cloak. This would still be useful, but not too weighted in the player's favour.
Mine actually got damaged recently, but I got it fixed by repairbots, as I didn't want to be without it.
That was a bad day all round. I was on a Random Hit, and ended up with the cloak, galactic hyperdrive, energy bomb and advanced space compass all damaged. What with the regular repairs and four lots of repairbots for the cloak this cost me the best part of 15,000 CR, for a bounty of 2,600 Cr.

[Eric Walch]

Might it be worth not making all inbound missiles explode when you activate the cloak, too? Instead, they could just keep going in a straight line when the player cloaks. That way, at least the player has to dodge out of the way of any inbound ordnance, instead of having a 100% successful ECM ...

Nice thought. With current code, the TARGET_CLOAKED already comes before a TARGET_LOST message and the target is still known at that very moment. So you can write an AI that just flies to the last known position of the target and explodes there....

Code: Select all

	"ATTACK_SHIP" =
	{
		ENTER = ("setDesiredRangeTo: 25.0", performIntercept);
		"DESIRED_RANGE_ACHIEVED" = ("setStateTo: DETONATE");
		"TARGET_DESTROYED" = ("setStateTo: EXPLODE");
		"TARGET_LOST" = ("setStateTo: EXPLODE");
		"TARGET_CLOAKED" = ("setStateTo: FLY_AHEAD");
		ECM = ("setStateTo: EXPLODE");
		"GONE_BEYOND_RANGE" = ("setStateTo: EXPLODE");
		UPDATE = ("setDesiredRangeTo: 30000.0", checkDistanceTravelled, "setDesiredRangeTo: 25.0", "pauseAI: 5.0");
	};
	"FLY_AHEAD" =
	{
		ENTER = (setDestinationToTarget, "setSpeedFactorTo: 1", performFlyToRangeFromDestination);
		"DESIRED_RANGE_ACHIEVED" = ("setStateTo: DETONATE");
		"GONE_BEYOND_RANGE" = ("setStateTo: EXPLODE");
		UPDATE = ("setDesiredRangeTo: 30000.0", checkDistanceTravelled, "setDesiredRangeTo: 25.0", "pauseAI: 5.0");
	};

Untested, but I'll give it a try. (However, performFlyToRangeFromDestination does a slowdown at the end, so it might look just silly for a missile)

[Cody]

I ran with a damaged cloaking device for months. Since it’s been ‘fixed’, it has increased my survivability a little by knocking-out hardheads (which is all I use it for). It doesn’t really help me a lot in close-quarters firefights, as I’m far too busy enjoying the dog-fighting to use it, and the energy banks are often too low anyway. It is a bit ‘uber’, that’s for sure… I’d favour balancing things a little better somehow.

[Disembodied]

Nice thought. With current code, the TARGET_CLOAKED already comes before a TARGET_LOST message and the target is still known at that very moment. So you can write an AI that just flies to the last known position of the target and explodes there....

Untested, but I'll give it a try. (However, performFlyToRangeFromDestination does a slowdown at the end, so it might look just silly for a missile)

Cool! With the missiles moving pretty fast anyway, would it be possible to give them a really low rate of slowdown? That might overcome any unusual effects.

[Eric Walch]

Cool! With the missiles moving pretty fast anyway, would it be possible to give them a really low rate of slowdown? That might overcome any unusual effects.

I didn't think of that, but since 1.74 we have: "setThrustFactorTo: xx". Setting it to a low value won't help as the code uses the thrust to calculate from which point it should start with a slowdown. It would just start to slowdown sooner. But setting thrust to zero might work because how hard a missile would try to stop, without any thrust it won't succeed to change the current speed.

[Cmdr James]

This is kind of off topic, but I always wanted different values for acceleration and deceleration as things like missiles should get fast quick but not really slow down (normaly). At least assuming missiles are kind of like rocket powered weaponry which I imagine them to be.

[Thargoid]

I wonder a little why a ship in a single-player game does have to be balanced? Surely there are times when you want a long term career Commander, and go for a Cobbie3 or something. But there are other times when you just want to go out and have an enjoyable firefight, and then use something military like a Caduceus or a Vortex.

As is often said, no-one is forced to install anything, nor fly any particular ship. It's the joy of the game.

And yes the Vortex is deliberately not an average ship. It was me having some scripting fun as I had a few ideas knocking around and wanted to make something that people would enjoy flying. Judging by the downloads of it (and also of the Caddy whilst I've been temporarily hosting it for ClymAngus whilst he gets things sorted) there is a distinct audience of Oolite players who want things a little easier and less of a challenge.

[Cmdr James]

No one says single player games have to be balanced, but I assert balanced games are better (more fun) than imbalanced games.

Balance has nothing really to do with how easy something is, it is about maintaing meaningful choices. Should I get a faster ship, but cary less cargo, or should I get a bulk hauler that flies like a brick?

If there is a ship that is faster, has more cargo, mounts more firepower and has more shield than anything else... where is the sense in ever flying anything else. I dont want to be a smuggler anymore I want to be a pirate, or a bounty hunter, so ... so I dont even need to change ship. To me thats less good.

But its up to you, Im not saying you cant imbalance your game, or anyone elses. Im just saying I think its less good.

[Smivs]

I wonder a little why a ship in a single-player game does have to be balanced? Surely there are times when you want a long term career Commander, and go for a Cobbie3 or something. But there are other times when you just want to go out and have an enjoyable firefight, and then use something military like a Caduceus or a Vortex.

As is often said, no-one is forced to install anything, nor fly any particular ship. It's the joy of the game.

And yes the Vortex is deliberately not an average ship. It was me having some scripting fun as I had a few ideas knocking around and wanted to make something that people would enjoy flying. Judging by the downloads of it (and also of the Caddy whilst I've been temporarily hosting it for ClymAngus whilst he gets things sorted) there is a distinct audience of Oolite players who want things a little easier and less of a challenge.

You make some good points. This is supposed to be a game after all. Clearly there are those who oppose super-ships as I found when I released Contractor. But Thargoid's experience (and Contractor's 200 + downloads to date) suggests that clearly there is a demand for them as well.
Oddly, I think this is testament to the basic game. The basic range of ships is actually so good that new additions have to be a bit special to have a point, to stand out. Who would want another fighter added when you can buy an Asp, who would want another brilliant allrounder when you're actually given the hard-to-beat Cobra Mk III, what's the point of another 100Ton + hauler when you can buy a Python?
I don't think people are buying super-ships to make life easy, I think they want something different, exiting, special.

[Ganelon]

Well, ships aren't the only things that can be made more uber. There are a number of OXPs that could increase the difficulty of the game in terms of the number of enemies encountered. Adding ships to the game allows for the chance to meet an opponent flying one as well.

I like the Imperial Courier because it's a neat looking little ship, but if there's a couple of them in a pack you run up against they use multiple beam attacks that the player does *not* get, so far as I can tell. Better plan on taking more evasive action in fights when they're in the game. Oh, there are effective strategies against them, but they're another factor to consider if they're in your game. It isn't real hard to make the game more challenging with OXPs, to where a hotter ship is warranted.

Another thing that has to be considered is the passage of time. Between the invention of the first Sopwith Camel biplane and the invention of the SR-71 Blackbird was about 40 years. I think it's been something like 60 yrs in the game history since the Cobra MK III was introduced?

The SR-71 Blackbird is considerably more "uber" than a Sopwith Camel. It uses technological innovations that wouldn't even have been fantasy in the early 1900s. About 20 times faster, stealth technology, advanced weapons systems.. I'll leave the technical details and how the advances were achieved to those with an interest in such things. But those developments were made in only about 2/3 the time that the Cobra MK III has been around in the game according to the wiki.

The Vortex (to take a recent example), has some interesting innovations. It's a bit quicker than the Cobra MK III, but it is not a fraction of the 2100 mph vs 117 mph of the Blackbird vs the Sopwith Camel. Most of the uber ships I've seen mentioned over the months in the forum have been modest and conservative technological advances compared to the sort of advances we see in actual reality here on the planet Earth (which I don't think is a particularly high tech level, in game terms).

In a sense, it may be making the game easier to limit it to the same set of ships as in Elite. The player's skill goes up, their reflexes improve, and they learn new tricks, while the game does not. If a player wants to maintain a healthy feeling level of challenge, it may actually be necessary to bring in faster and more dangerous ships as their skill improves. Since not all players at any time will be comfortable at the same levels, it makes the most sense to keep the changes optional as OXPs rather than change the core. Core changes can *allow* more flexibility and new options for OXPs, but I think most folks would agree that the base game one sees when first starting out or in strict mode is an *excellent* and well balanced game that has been fine-tuned by countless hours of play and feedback. But I feel the game can remain balanced by adding challenges and making "more uber" ships available on the Ooniversal scale, and that may be one of the things about Oolite that keeps it from eventually getting "stale" like so many other games do after a time.

Sure, I can see the point that if the player and only the player has an "uber" ship, it could make the game into "shooting fish in a barrel". But when we add ships, they show up on the other side as well. It may not be a perfect balance, but it is less unbalancing than if only the player got to fly the hot new iron.

Personally, I like seeing a lot of different kinds of ships when I go along the spacelanes. I like seeing the pretty new ships up on the sale list even if they aren't what I'm wanting in a ship at the moment. But I figure someday, sooner or later, I'm going to be cruising along in my Cobby3 and I'm going to run into a pirate in a Vortex. I'm looking forward to it. I hope he/she has taken their vitamins and is in a mean mood that day. Win or lose, it should be a memorable scrap, and that's where the fun is.

[Cody]

I like the Imperial Courier because it's a neat looking little ship, but if there's a couple of them in a pack you run up against they use multiple beam attacks that the player does *not* get, so far as I can tell. Better plan on taking more evasive action in fights when they're in the game. Oh, there are effective strategies against them, but they're another factor to consider if they're in your game. It isn't real hard to make the game more challenging with OXPs, to where a hotter ship is warranted.

Apart from the fact that they’re great eye-candy, that’s the reason I have the Griff Kraits in my game… twin lasers, some with the mil variety, that don’t seem to overheat. A pack of those make for a very nasty firefight, and can occasionly atomise my iron-assed Cobra III… press space commander.

[Thargoid]

And also in terms of balance, not all the trunk ships are balanced anyway - but in that case in terms of weakness rather than strength.

So we have the Adder and the Cobbie 1 - both significantly weaker ships than a Cobbie 3, but with a lower price. But in terms of balance, they have no great strength to counter their cargo/weaponry/shield deficiencies.

Thus if we are including cost and rarity into the equation, things do balance up somewhat better in all cases. The Adder is a weak little craft, but it's cheap and so you can kit it out a bit for the cost of a base C3. And conversely a Caddy, Kirin, Dragon or a Vortex are more tricked-out at base level, but you have to save a lot of credits for them, and you can't just walk into any shipyard and get one.

Those ships cater for a market of players, as do websites that give cheats/hacks/cracks for other games for infinite lives/energy/weaponry etc. But they certainly aren't for everyone, and quite rightly so. It'd be very boring (and confusing) if we were all the same