Oolite Community Suggestions for Beginner OXPs

[jblpz]

But we could have a "recommended OXPs" page with a selection of the most popular.

On the other hand, I have previously said that if there were a community-selected recommended starter pack (consisting of a bundle of separate OXPs for simplicity), I would be happy to advertise that on oolite.org.

I think this quote pretty much clears it up.

[JensAyton]

But we could have a "recommended OXPs" page with a selection of the most popular.

On the other hand, I have previously said that if there were a community-selected recommended starter pack (consisting of a bundle of separate OXPs for simplicity), I would be happy to advertise that on oolite.org.

I think this quote pretty much clears it up.

I hope so, because I was about to post almost the same thing verbatim. :-)

Community recommendations (and simpler downloads) good. “Official” developer/oolite.org pronouncements bad.

[Commander McLane]

First of all, hi jblpz, and welcome to the boards and of course to this great game!

Personally I understand your (and every other new player's) request for OXP recommendations.

Unfortunately, it isn't that simple. For a start, this is a very diverse community, and there are a lot of things we don't agree upon with each other. So whose recommendations are you looking for? I could give you my personal recommendations, some other guy could give you his, and a third guy could give you his. Chances are that 80% of the OXPs in each recommendation would not be recommended by the other two guys. Would that help you? I guess not.

Therefore I'm afraid you have to find out yourself which OXPs suit your style of play. Do you want eye-candy? Do you want missions? Do you want "realism"? Do you want more ships and/or stations? Do you want alternative career-paths? Do you want tougher opponents? Do you want less tough opponents? Do you want to get rich fast? Etc, etc. For each of these purposes there are different OXPs which will take you there. And there are others which you won't want to install.

That's why we have the OXP-page in the wiki. It gives you a (brief) overview what each OXP does, and a link to either a download location, or more extensive information. Therefore it allows you to make informed choices.

You may also want to follow the threads here in which a new repository for OXPs is proposed and dicussed. One of the advantages of this would be that OXPs could be flagged as "beginner's" or "don't touch it until you've got an iron ass". But all of this is just proposal yet, none of it actually exists.

So, please don't expect any "official" recommendations, because there is no official who could give them. Only individuals with very varied styles of play.

[jblpz]

Thanks Commander McLane. I was concentrating on OXPs "which enhances the overall game-play or which implements some things within Oolite which really should be in the standard release".

I'll re-phrase that last sentence though, what I meant was "..or which implements some things within Oolite which some might expect from modern space trading/combat games, or which adds to the realism of the game".

There are a few OXPs that I think would fit nicely into this category, for example "Target Autolock", "Planet Fall", "Rock Hermit Locator", "Save Anywhere", and "Asteroid Storm"

Target Autolock seems to be something that would/should be available as part of the base game for example, and may be something we may want to recommend to beginners because cost of the device is relatively cheap. It would seem only practical to have something like this on any ship that could possibly be engaged in combat.

"Planet Fall" seems like a nice fit here as well, as I'm sure everyone would like the ability to land on a planet, and not just stations. I'm not sure why, but I think it just adds to the realism or "suspension of disbelief" of the game.

I think being able to detect Rock Hermits should be a given, as they should be treated like any other station (assuming they're doing business like any other station).

And "Save Anywhere" simply blurs the line between "base game" and OXP, again adding to the fluidity of the game (IMO).

Asteroid Storm just adds to the different sizes, shapes, general randomness of the asteroids in the game, again adding to the realism.

There are many OXPs that wouldn't fit into this category however, anything that significantly changes the balance of the game, or that you wouldn't think of as something being released with the Oolite base game, for example.

Again though, I think a section like this on the wiki would eventually iron itself out, based on the inherent collaboration that the wiki provides. If there are any disagreements, they can be discussed on the "talk page" for that section, just like wikipedia.

[jblpz]

First of all, hi jblpz, and welcome to the boards and of course to this great game!

Chances are that 80% of the OXPs in each recommendation would not be recommended by the other two guys. Would that help you? I guess not.

I guess it's that 20% that I'm interested in.. if there's a chance of narrowing it down, no reason why we shouldn't give it a try.

Oh and thanks for the warm welcomes everyone, much appreciated.

[Disembodied]

There are a few OXPs that I think would fit nicely into this category, for example "Target Autolock", "Planet Fall", "Rock Hermit Locator", "Save Anywhere", and "Asteroid Storm".

As an example of how tricky this all is, and not in any way just to be argumentative , here's why I disagree with three of these:

Target Autolock: personally, I think the amount of automation in Oolite should be kept to a bare minimum. Inside my head, this is a game of lone-wolf pilots flying by the seats of their pants in a universe which is decidedly short on computing power. It's brain and eye and hand and not much else ...

Planetfall: I don't think players should land on planets. Or rather, I don't think they should land on planets in quite this way: I think planetary landings should be possible, but illegal.

Rock Hermit locator: I don't assume they are doing business like other stations. Partly it's the "hermit" thing, I suppose, and partly it's my previously-stated objection to having too much done for you. Rock hermits, I think, should be stumbled upon now and then, not dropped in on whenever you feel like it.

All the above is of course purely personal, and the great thing about OXPs is that you can pick and choose the ones you want. Oolite is set in a universe that exists for the main part completely inside the player's head, and the choice of which OXPs you install can shade how that universe feels. Me, I'm quite picky about what my ooniverse is like – possibly to an unhealthy degree ...

But for what it's worth, here are my recommendations for beginners which all fit my conception of the Ooniverse and which I feel nobody could possibly disagree with:

Enhances game-play:

Commies
Dictators
Your Ad Here

All of the above add new trading locations and help to distinguish certain system types from the others.

Ship types:

Rusties

Offers starting players more options to trade in their new Cobra III for second-hand banger and kit it out with some more gear, to get them off the milk-runs that little bit quicker.

Missions

Asteroid Storm
Lave Academy
Long Way Round
UPS

Asteroid Storm and Long Way Round are suitable for beginners. Lave Academy isn't really a mission but it's a good way to find something a bit different to do, as well as being good practice. And UPS is a great introduction to other potential careers, as well as generating missions in its own right.

[Commander McLane]

Target Autolock: personally, I think the amount of automation in Oolite should be kept to a bare minimum. Inside my head, this is a game of lone-wolf pilots flying by the seats of their pants in a universe which is decidedly short on computing power. It's brain and eye and hand and not much else ...

Planetfall: I don't think players should land on planets. Or rather, I don't think they should land on planets in quite this way: I think planetary landings should be possible, but illegal.

Rock Hermit locator: I don't assume they are doing business like other stations. Partly it's the "hermit" thing, I suppose, and partly it's my previously-stated objection to having too much done for you. Rock hermits, I think, should be stumbled upon now and then, not dropped in on whenever you feel like it.

@ jblpz: You see how little simple it is, and how things which you think to be a "must" may be an abomination to others. I agree with Disembodied on all three counts. I haven't installed any of these three OXPs and I therefore wouldn't recommend them to other players.

[jblpz]

@ jblpz: You see how little simple it is, and how things which you think to be a "must" may be an abomination to others. I agree with Disembodied on all three counts. I haven't installed any of these three OXPs and I therefore wouldn't recommend them to other players.

Hehe, well I definitely wouldn't want you to suggest something that you haven't tried!

I didn't say that the items I mentioned were a "must", only that they seemed to be good candidates. We shouldn't expect that as soon as someone suggests an OXP is good for beginners, or not, that it is accepted without review or debate. I'm only suggesting that the process of review and debate is worth the end result, especially for those who are interested in the end result. The end being, of course, putting together a small list of OXP recommendations for beginners.

Those who are not interested in the end result need not stifle the discussion for those who are interested. Not that that was your intention, but I don't think judging the worthiness of an effort like this should be based on how "simple it is".

I'm definately not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to convey my point of view. We both enjoy the game and the genre, so that's the common ground I think we can agree on. I just get this feeling (probably just a misunderstanding on my part) that those who do not like the idea are trying to break it down or prevent it from happening, instead of just saying "hey I don't want anything to do with that, but if a hand full of you think it's a good idea, and are willing to put it together, more power to you!".

In any case it all comes down to "Winston". I requested access to edit the wiki from him, so just waiting on that. If I don't get access, then I can't start the process, and the idea is moot. I definitely don't want to host the recommendations on my own website, because that just defeats the purpose (IMO); which is to have a small number of authoritative and comprehensive sources of information for Oolite, such as the Oolite wiki, and to expand on that.

[Disembodied]

I didn't say that the items I mentioned were a "must", only that they seemed to be good candidates. We shouldn't expect that as soon as someone suggests an OXP is good for beginners, or not, that it is accepted without review or debate. I'm only suggesting that the process of review and debate is worth the end result, especially for those who are interested in the end result. The end being, of course, putting together a small list of OXP recommendations for beginners.

One solution could be to list a number of possible starter packs, each with a short explanatory rationale saying why this or that named individual recommends the OXPs inside – so there could be "jblpz's Starter Selection Pack" and "Commander McLane's Choice" and "Disembodied Recommends" and so on. I doubt we'd get more than four or five starter lists. Where necessary we could make high-end and low-end sets, too.

[jblpz]

One solution could be to list a number of possible starter packs, each with a short explanatory rationale saying why this or that named individual recommends the OXPs inside – so there could be "jblpz's Starter Selection Pack" and "Commander McLane's Choice" and "Disembodied Recommends" and so on. I doubt we'd get more than four or five starter lists. Where necessary we could make high-end and low-end sets, too.

Nice, like that idea!

[jblpz]

I guess the section could be titled something like: "Oolite Beginners and OXPs"

For example:
------
Oolite Beginners and OXPs
If you are fairly new to Oolite, and are interested in enhancing your game via the use of OXP's, but don't know where to start, this section is for you!

Starter Packs
Listed below are recommended "starter packs", OXP suggestions for Oolite newcomers from the Oolite community:

Flash-forward Pack - Description: <description........> - Maintainer: jblpz
Iron Ass Pack - Description: <description........> - Maintainer: Disembodied
Happy Trader Pack - Description: <description........> - Maintainer:Commander McLane
------

Each pack would be a separate wiki page, with descriptions on why each OXP is suggested. A changelog can also be maintained for each pack if any OXPs are added/removed. Each OXP within the pack can just be a link to the OXP's page/download link.. or if the pack maintainer wants to put in the effort, they can provide a download link which includes everything the pack needs.

[Commander McLane]

@ jblpz: You see how little simple it is, and how things which you think to be a "must" may be an abomination to others. I agree with Disembodied on all three counts. I haven't installed any of these three OXPs and I therefore wouldn't recommend them to other players.

Hehe, well I definitely wouldn't want you to suggest something that you haven't tried!

You got me wrong there. It's not about not-having-tried.

It is about me disagreeing with you. You think landing on planets is a logical and wonderful enhancement of the game. I think that Elite's/Oolite's backstory states clearly that outworlders are explicitely prohibited from landing on planets, and that this is the reason for setting up trading stations in the first place. Therefore personally I think that no OXP should ever allow anybody to land on a planet. In my humble opinion it is not a logical and desirable extension of Elite gameplay, but it breaks Elite gameplay.

Fortunately everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, and obviously there are people who disagree with me on this issue, not least Thargoid who created the Planetfall OXP. Therefore my way of dealing with the disagreement is not to use his OXP. And I don't recommend it to you, because I don't want you to break your Oolite. This has nothing to do with I-can't-recommend-it-because-I-just-haven't-tried-it-yet, but it is an informed decision on my part. And you should be aware that the OXP kind of breaks Oolite's backstory and should therefore also make an informed decision.

For the two other OXPs mentioned by you and Disembodied the case is similar, yet not as strong. I simply am of the opinion that the devices contained in these OXPs should not exist in the Ooniverse, and that's the reason why they don't exist in my personal Ooniverse. And it is for this reason that I wouldn't recommend them, not because I've not gotten around to testing them.

Now, I don't want to force my personal style of gameplay and my opinions on other people, that's not the point.

My point was, right from my first answer, that it is not simple to get "community recommendations", because our community is diverse. There are people who think that (taking this example again) landing on planets is just what was missing in Elite, and it is wonderful that we can now do it in Oolite. The commanders-are-not-allowed-to-land-on-planets thing was just a handwave for the fact that it was technically impossible to achieve on the 8-bit computers.

And there are people (like me) who, while agreeing on the handwave part, still think that this limitation has become an integral part of the Elite universe (here's where the c-word (canonic) comes into play) which cannot be changed without making Oolite into something that isn't Elite anymore. Personally I am not interested in something that isn't Elite anymore, because I am playing Oolite as an enhanced version of Elite, but within Elite's parameters. Therefore I am making conscious and informed choices about those OXPs which (in my opinion) operate within this framework, and those which don't. My recommendations of course reflect these choices.

[Killer Wolf]

a decent argument, but it kinda depends on how you look at Oolite - as an update of Elite, or an update of the Elite *series*.
you say landing on planets breaks Elite gameplay, and it does, but in the Elite series, it progressed to allowing planetary landings. it also had laser coolers, it also allowed ship changing, assassination contracts, wormhole scanners, passenger contracts etc etc. if we're being strict about non-Elite stuff, there's a huge chunk of OXPs that shouldn't be used.

[Cmdr James]

Killer Wolf, I think you missed Commander McLane's point. He isnt actually arguing about the OXP choices as such, he is questioning the concept of agreeing on OXP choices.

His point is the same as yours, it depends how you view oolite, and therefore an agreed list of OXPs is hard to do. He is not arguing against Planetfall per se, he is rather using it as an example of an OXP which is either a necessary extention, or is game breaking depending on perspective.

[snork]

Why not recommend beginners to play vanilla Oolite for a while ?
(pure eye-or-ear- candy aside, maybe.)

That way I soon enough can learn what parts of the game are too easy or too hard for me (making money, fighting, whatever) and then go for OXPs to adjust just that for my own personal "needs".

E.g. for me this would be :
- nothing that makes making money even easier than in vanilla Oolite, at least not significantly.
- nothing auto-this or -that
- I will sooner or later add "stronger" ships, so NPCs can pose a bigger threat.
- fun stuff (yah [will need to learn script-editing to get less profits with the constores ], pods, cargo_wreck_teaser, etc.)
- much more (stations, missions, flavours, etc.)

just another example : deep space pirates will be fine for me.
But for some other beginner, being stripped off the possibility to not meet pirates by loop-way-ing from witchpoint to station, might make them too frustrated in the beginning.

Also, the more vanilla, the closer to original documentation, which for me as a beginner is important.