Oolite Development and Beyond

[Darkbee]

What are the goals of the Oolite development team these days? I assume that it's mainly just to fix bugs and add minor features. The game as it stands seems to meet it's original goals. From that perspective there doesn't seem to be a lot more that needs to be done. Of course, that doesn't mean that Oolite is dead, far from it, there's always room for new and exciting OXPs, and other community enhancements. Furthermore, there's always room for improvement, but really what more does/should Oolite need?

I ask I suppose mainly because in the back of my mind I wonder if others have been thinking about creating a new game. I hope people don't take this the wrong way, my aim is not to take anything away from what goes on here. I just get the sense that there are many shortcomings in Oolite, stemming from the fact that it was heavily influenced by Elite and as such has inherited some of Elite's limitations. It seems some of the ideas that people are coming up with lately are either extremely difficult or near impossible with Oolite's game engine. So to my mind, it does beg the question of what if some talented individuals here were to start work on a new game engine?

Naturally, it's easy for me to sit here from the (relative) comfort of my office chair and say "make it so!" but it seems there are some very smart peoples around these parts.

Just tossing this out there.. feel free to bite my head off.

[Commander McLane]

I don't think that Oolite has reached perfection, or even a final state of development yet. There are already some requests and ideas marked EMMSTRAN*. There may even be a Grand Plan™ for future development of Oolite, according to Ahruman who has hinted that a possible version 2.0 might not necessarily be bound by Elite's legacies anymore.

However, all development on Oolite is totally voluntary work by people in their spare time, so nobody knows what's going to happen the day after tomorrow. Or, to put it in Niels Bohr's immortal words: "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future."

Of course there are some limits to future development. For me personally Oolite is basically Elite, so I don't feel that it has shortcomings, but that it is what it is, namely a 3D space exploring and shooter game. I wouldn't want to transform it into something else, neither a first-person-shooter, nor a text adventure, nor chess. But I don't see that as a limitation

__________
*Even More Mythical STable Release After Next

[another_commander]

Good question. For me, the goal is getting Oolite to a new stable release. This by definition means that there will come a time that new features will seize to appear and only bug fixes will start going in. I believe that we are already going through this period. Not to say that new features are banned, but you may have noticed that more and more we turn down the "bigger" requests which require time and may cause instability in favor of the small and quicker ones. We push requests to "post-MNSR" more often than before. However, no requests that are made are impossible. It just means that getting them in will mean a major rewrite, or changes in the way things are done or change in dependencies, all of which lead to extensive coding and testing periods, which is not exactly what you want when you are heading for the next stable release.

As for a new game, that depends on each person's time and will to start something else. Oolite is made around Elite, with all of Elite's design limitations -good or bad - and when it was initially conceived there was no objective to make it something else. It had very clear targets right from the start, which is why it succeeded. So now we have an Elite engine, which is open to modifications and new content, but always Elite at the bottom of it all. If a new engine were to be started, it'd better have clear targets as well, or it risks becoming yet another project that got started and abandoned shortly after.

I am not sure that the current team is aimed at making a new game engine any time soon, though. I am not sure how many of us will have time available to be around after the next stable either, come to think of it. But I could be wrong. I never have free time, but I always return for a quick hack or two. But it's a totally different concept trying to design and implement a project from scratch. The ideas are there and will be there as long as there is new dev blood joining the project, but we'll just have to see how it goes. Stick around, it's a pretty fascinating ride.

[Kaks]

There are quite a few 'pending' items that will have to be dealt with after the next stable release.

As far as minor things & bugfixes are concerned, that's exactly what we're focusing on, in order to get to the next stable release!

Having said that, there has been a number of shiny things that have taken our attention in the recent past... in trunk we've got at least 3 features that 2 weeks ago nobody would have even guessed would be there!

Anyway, things flagged for post-MNSR that Oolite 'needs' while still remaining essentially the same game - & that I can remember off the top of my head - are: better collision code, new shadery planets, multiple lasers for player, better AI engine, 'proper' economy/better way of scripting markets, a way of switching ships, multiple suns, 'proper' planetary systems: planets following orbits, comets & ringed planets, adding structures to planets surfaces, the ability to use cutscenes...

That little list should keep a full time programmer busy for about a couple of years, I reckon!

As for creating a new game, Lestradae's project (OE) is probably going to develop along those lines, if I'm not too mistaken: more galaxies, active factions (battles, expanding empires) systems literally teeming with NPCs of all shapes and sizes doing all sort of things.
Screet - who created the first test OE download a while back - has already made quite a few changes to the way the O in OE works, you might want to talk to both/either of them!

Anyway back to the (RL) grind!

[Smivs]

Just a few thoughts...
Would the next stable be an opportunity to sort out a few niggles in the game? I ask with some trepidation because the niggles I'm thinking of have sort of become canon in their own way.
For example, resolve the scale (metres/feet) issue with respect to ship sizes, and have a look at the prices of the ships while we're at it. And of course the infamous 'Coffee Stain' Anaconda capacity conundrum.
Perhaps if there ever was an 'Oolite 2' these steps might be considered to make the game more 'sensible'. But would this be welcomed?
Other things that might be worth considering, if do-able, might be to look again at the saving options (not just at main station), and the possibility of having more than one ship at any given time. These are both issues which come up for discussion regularly.
I would not advocate changes to aspects such as adding laser coolers and extending the 7 light-year jump, as this would damage the game, but one other limit that might be beneficial is to impose a maximum speed on (OXP) ships to avoid too much silliness.
As I said, just a few thoughts I've had and thought I'd share with you.

[SiriusCG]

Perhaps if there ever was an 'Oolite 2' these steps might be considered to make the game more 'sensible'. But would this be welcomed?

Perhaps an "Oolite 2" could be envisioned as more of a "space simulator engine" and less an "Elite clone"?

It seems to me that this may have already happened, considering the number of OXPs that, while they may find some place in the Elite universe, really take the game to a much different level.

So, perhaps it could be said that "Oolite" has met the goals for replicating the original Elite game (again, how many people play in strict mode?) and new features could earmarked be for a more "generic" engine.

I think what Kaks has posted:

Anyway, things flagged for post-MNSR that Oolite 'needs' while still remaining essentially the same game - & that I can remember off the top of my head - are: better collision code, new shadery planets, multiple lasers for player, better AI engine, 'proper' economy/better way of scripting markets, a way of switching ships, multiple suns, 'proper' planetary systems: planets following orbits, comets & ringed planets, adding structures to planets surfaces, the ability to use cutscenes..

could really take what I would call "The Oolite Engine" is a wonderful direction.

Cheers.

[Darkbee]

Thanks for all the responses!

First off I'm not trying to minimize Oolite, it's a fantastic achievement based on an equally fantastic original.

@Commander McLane
I basically agree with you, except to say that as it stands today, I think that aside from any minor bugs, it would be fair to classify Oolite as "complete". I don't think there's such a thing as a perfect game but both Elite and Oolite come close. I think Oolite has enough depth to merit being considered an end product. That's not to say it couldn't be improved, of course it could, but it doesn't need to be improved.

@another_commander
I think this is more than reasonable, there's little point in adding features for the sake of adding features. I'd hate for Oolite to lose its standing as a wonderful homage to Elite. My understanding of the original goals were that they were not meant to take Elite in a different direction, but merely expand upon some areas where game-play and player-immersion could be improved and extended (and I think Oolite does that wonderfully).

@Kaks
I think even some of the things you mention are, IMHO out of the scope of Oolite to be quite honest, but either way they would undoubtedly add value and depth to the game-play. An artist is never happy with his work.

@Smivs
These are the types of things that I have in mind, and you could certainly make an argument (canon?) that these things should not be addressed. I think things like the fact that the original Elite didn't allow for or expect players to be able to fly other ships has hurt Oolite. There's a lot of redundancy in being able to choose ships without any consequences and the goal simply becomes to have the best ship money can buy. As for stuff like being able to jump more than 7 light years, this is where you're definitely entering the territory of requiring a different approach, a new way of thinking... a different game engine.

Another "gripe" for want of a better word is the seemingly isolated and distinct nature of each system (again stemming from the original Elite). Although things like missions stand to give the illusion of a persistent Ooniverse, in general there is an underlying feeling that each system is like a separate sub-game within itself.

@SiriusCG
I think you might be falling into the first trap. Conceiving of an "Oolite 2" seems like that would inherently constrain one's ideas to the foundation laid down by Elite. However, I think you're on the right track with a generic space sim engine.

@Anyone who cares to listen...
I'm not proposing that we fork Oolite, or we all run off and immediately start to write a new game. Nor do I, as I stated above want to minimize the achievements of Oolite. Overall, I appreciate all of the developers' and contributors' time to Oolite and I certainly wouldn't want to take that for granted and tell them how they should be spending their time. My purpose was really to see or get a feel for the thoughts others have had about a game that breaks away from Elite/Oolite but while still drawing on some of the experiences those games gave us.

Ever since Elite, I've dreamed of how it could be bettered, what could be done differently if starting from scratch. I thought Frontier Elite 2 would be that new direction, but although the game was fascinating to explore, it was terrible to play, in particular the combat and that totally killed it for me (no pun intended).

Anyway, there's nothing to say something has to come of this discussion, merely that we the ideas are there and someday they may give birth to something wonderful and unexpected.

[Commander McLane]

For example, resolve the scale (metres/feet) issue with respect to ship sizes,

I don't think that's possible, because there's much more than just ships involved, and the main scale problem is not ship sizes vs. human body sizes (which could be resolved by assuming feet), but ship sizes vs. planet sizes, and implicitely human body sizes vs. planet sizes. If the ships shrink to roughly one third of their sizes, everything else shrinks too, making the planets even more ridiculously small than they already are.

In Oolite there are things which are too big and things which are too small. Resizing everything by the same factor doesn't change that.

On top of that we need ships of the sizes we have (may we interpret it to be meters or feet) in order to make them visible in our gameplay. So there is no room at all for actual downscaling.

[Smivs]

@ Commander McLane
Of course you are right, and even I happily accept that in this case, size doesn't matter.


Having said that, I think some of my other points do stand up.
Oolite came into being to continue the spirit of Elite in today's world, and it does this excellently. It is a truly great game and I for one would not welcome any changes that affect this.
But so much of Oolite today is about 'immersion', believeability and so on. And this aspect could be enhanced by tidying up some of the quirks.
It has been pointed out that, unlike Elite, we can buy and sell ships. In Elite you started with a Mk 3 Cobra because that was the only ship you could ever have, so it had to be a good all-rounder. This is no longer the case, and there is perhaps an arguement for starting with a different/lesser ship.
Or *Novel Idea Alert* why not be able to start the game with a pot of money, say 150 000Cr (the price of a base Cobra 3), to spend as you see fit. Maybe start with a Mk1 Cobra with a bit of kit and more buying power. The point is it would be up to you. And, yes, I know in practice you can sort of do this anyway, by selling the Mk 3 at the start of the game, but that's beside the point. The point is it seems silly that you are just 'given' such a good ship at the start. In 'immersion mode' we could imagine we've won 150 000Cr on the Lave Lottery and decide to invest it in our future business as a trader/bounty-hunter or whatever.
Also, subtle changes could be made to the pricing and spec/performance of the core ships which would make the Ooniverse a more believeable place without in any way detrimentally affecting the 'canon', feel or spirit of the game.
As has been said, Oolite is already really good, and wholesale change is not desirable, so if we are going to try to keep the experience an improving one, we need to be looking at areas where things could be changed gently to improve the immersive aspects of the game, as well as adding new features.

[Switeck]

Or have the game start with different "skill" settings, as my mod does.
It only affects what ship you start with and how much extras you have.
Easy = you start with a Cobra 3 and 100 Credits.
Medium = you start with a Cobra 1 and 100 Credits.
Hard = you start with an Adder and 100 Credits.
CRUEL = you start with an Adder but have no Credits and the ship is stripped of everything except its Pulse Laser.

[DaddyHoggy]

<snip> size doesn't matter.

Have you met my wife...

[pagroove]

This is a question I wanted to ask but did not 'dare'. Some interesting perspectives here.

[wish mode on]
For me I hope that Oolite will get a better method of planet generation (even better that it is now) shaders, but also a far and better random seed. So that we can have infinite variation in the shapes of the system you visit.

Other wishes are:
-Crews
-More varied passenger interaction (markets
-Special cargo
-More market Items (water for example)
-Planet systems with auto generated trade lanes to those planets. Maybe optimization to dynamically only activate the trade system you're in.
-Deepspace traffic as standard (not only pirates)

In my vision each of the 2048 worlds would be a truly unique environment while still having some Elite key elements.

Very cool would be (but this is definitely not Oolite)
-Adventure or 3d engine for stations

*Planetary landing is not needed anymore. Pioneer is perfect for that.
But Yeah Pioneer and Oolite in one game ! without Newtonian. Now that would be cool. But the dev of Pioneer wants to keep it Newtonian so, no hope.

[wish mode-off]

A side-word about the OE-project. Only Lestradae can answer how far this project is but I believe it is either stalled or dead. But Lestradae can maybe answer this.

[Commander McLane]

@ Commander McLane
Of course you are right, and even I happily accept that in this case, size doesn't matter.

Having said that, I think some of my other points do stand up.

Of course they do. I was only commenting on that particular point.

[Killer Wolf]

"Anyway, things flagged for post-MNSR that Oolite 'needs' while still remaining essentially the same game - & that I can remember off the top of my head - are: better collision code, new shadery planets, multiple lasers for player, better AI engine, 'proper' economy/better way of scripting markets, a way of switching ships, multiple suns, 'proper' planetary systems: planets following orbits, comets & ringed planets, adding structures to planets surfaces, the ability to use cutscenes... "

better collision and multi lasers would be mint, IMO. i'd love to be able to fly a properly-armed Dominatrix rather than just looking wistfully at the NPC versions.

structures on the planets tho....i dunno. it's a scale thing for me. i've already said i'd really prefer propre-sized planets etc, but i can accept them as they are simply by not thinking about it and regressing to my youth/Elite when playing, but adding structures would be a real stretch : to be viewable on a 50km planet it would mean they'd appear stupidly massive in relation to the planet, or they'd be so small (in order to look sensible) that they'd in effect be smaller than a ship.

[Smivs]

Better collision handling - yes definitely.
Multiple lasers - Er, not so sure about this one. How is this seen, lasers you can switch between? Nice idea on paper but in practice is there really any difference between this and (cough) laser coolers? The net result would be the same, surely?
If you mean multiple lasers firing simultaneously, well that's just another un-balancing player advantage to my mind.
As for ringed planets, comets, proper orbits etc - very yes! Sounds wonderful.