Oolite Bulletins

I spend most of my Oolite time trolling round for pirates and scooping their cargo. I often pick up slaves, and it leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. I don't like the idea of selling slaves much. I like the idea of jettisonning them into space even less. However these are currently the only two options. It would be nice if there was some way of doing the honourable thing and freeing any scooped (or purchased) slaves.

A nice touch would be a base or system somewhere devoted to slave-liberation. Perhaps there could be a special system administered by freed slaves, with an appropriate backstory on the F7 key. In this system, upon docking, any scooped slaves in cargo would be automatically removed from your inventory with no compensation other than a message of gratitude for bringing them to safety and freedom. Captured / rescued escape pods should be handled as usual, with bounty or reward. Maybe if you release enough slaves in this way, the local ex-slave authorities would smile upon you and offer you safe haven at times when your legal status might cause you difficulties elsewhere. On the other hand, pilots who develop a reputation for slave-trading would be blacklisted by the slave faction pretty quickly.

Another option would be an option to release slaves on planetfall, but obviously a planetfall OXP would have to be installed.

Is any of this possible?

dogscoff wrote:

I like the idea of jettisonning them into space even less.

If you do not like to leave them there, slowly running out of oxygen and energy, doomed and all ...

you can always shoot them.
You even get 1,- credit for removing debris off the spacelanes.

Hi dogscoff, welcome to the boards! Yours is an issue that lots of us share, and it's been discussed before. The good news is, it would seem to be (relatively) easy for someone with the knowhow and motivation to produce an OXP that would allow slaves to be released. The most recent discussion can be found here.

The problem with having a special station where slaves could be released would be that you would need to transport them there – which would mean either going there without docking (and saving) in a main station, or getting an Offender tag for taking as-yet-unliberated slaves out of a main station. The option of converting slaves into a "special cargo" like refugees is there, except (I think) that currently, any "special cargo" automatically fills your cargo bay.

But it should be possible for slaves to be detected when you dock (after any scooped escape pods have been dealt with), and the player offered an option to release them. Personally I'd favour making this cost the player something like 10Cr per ton: the Co-operative isn't a charity, slavery isn't illegal, and someone is going to have to feed and water them while they sort out their lives. Maybe there could be a minimum charge, with an option for the player to be more generous. Then I'd really feel that I'd earned my virtuous glow!

While "no good deed goes unpunished", and it might be an amusing prospect to people who have been playing long enough to not be scrabbling for funds, I think that charging the player for rescuing/freeing a slave is overly counter-intuitive.

Firstly, it would encourage the newest players to ignore any pangs of conscience in favour of their cr account. Is that a role we want to force on new players via economic necessity?

Secondly, slavery may not be exactly illegal, but since slaves are considered contraband, trafficking in them is illegal. It seems to me that indicates that while slavery (indenturement, to use a more likely term) is legal under local law in many systems, engaging in taking people from their system to sell elsewhere is not. It could follow logically that slaves you pick up from salvaging cargo while in space are likely citizens of that system who have been kidnapped to be sold into the slave trade elsewhere.

By that logic a small reward might be reasonable, though obviously it would be less than rescuing someone in an escape pod (where their insurance is paying the reward). It also should be less than the going market value for slaves on that planet/station. Maybe 25%? That way there could be some temptation to make more money by keeping them at slave status, but it wouldn't be the equivalent of having to pay a fine as a punishment for releasing them.

You may like the notion of donating a bit, Disembodied, and that is laudable, but if a donation is not voluntary and it is charged for committing an act (even one of compassion), then it is every bit as much a fine as if there was a fine for docking at an unsafe speeds.

I do agree with you in that the potential for donations within gameplay could be an interesting facet to add. In real life it is common enough to see containers at cash registers and etc to contribute to local causes. Perhaps donations could add up to slightly mitigate an "offender" status within that local system. That would be good for players who might choose to roleplay an outlaw with character something like the legendary "Pretty Boy Floyd"

Well you say that I'm an outlaw,
you say that I'm a thief.
But here's a Christmas dinner
For the families on relief.

from "Pretty Boy Floyd" by Woody Guthrie

Ganelon wrote:

While "no good deed goes unpunished", and it might be an amusing prospect to people who have been playing long enough to not be scrabbling for funds, I think that charging the player for rescuing/freeing a slave is overly counter-intuitive.

Firstly, it would encourage the newest players to ignore any pangs of conscience in favour of their cr account. Is that a role we want to force on new players via economic necessity?

Players will have to be able to afford a fuel scoop before they can scoop any slaves, by which time they'll almost certainly have at least a beam laser, a cargo expansion, and probably at least another gizmo or two fitted. A minimum charge for freeing slaves at e.g. 10Cr/ton isn't going to break anybody's bank at that point. It will, however, mean that choosing to free slaves represents an active (albeit minor) commitment to oppose slavery, and not just a cost-free way out of a moral quandary.

Ganelon wrote:

Secondly, slavery may not be exactly illegal, but since slaves are considered contraband, trafficking in them is illegal. It seems to me that indicates that while slavery (indenturement, to use a more likely term) is legal under local law in many systems, engaging in taking people from their system to sell elsewhere is not. It could follow logically that slaves you pick up from salvaging cargo while in space are likely citizens of that system who have been kidnapped to be sold into the slave trade elsewhere.

The only thing that's illegal is taking slaves out of a main system station. If you want, you can drop into a Convenience Store and pick up a whole bunch of slaves, legally ship them anywhere you like and sell them for a perfectly legal profit. The same applies to narcotics and firearms. The real reason behind this is game-mechanical, but the only logical in-game explanation I can come up with is that these trade items are controlled, but not illegal. The low prices and easy availability would indicate that the slave trade is common, too. So I don't see why anyone should give players a reward for turning them loose (especially since the freed slaves would have to be fed and housed and eventually shipped somewhere else). Who would pay?

Ganelon wrote:

You may like the notion of donating a bit, Disembodied, and that is laudable, but if a donation is not voluntary and it is charged for committing an act (even one of compassion), then it is every bit as much a fine as if there was a fine for docking at an unsafe speeds.

Nobody would have to free the slaves. If you don't want to, then you don't have to: sell them on the market and be done with them. They're no worse off; at least they're alive, and not drifting around in space. You wouldn't be paying a fine, you would be actively choosing to do something for entirely moral reasons. I think that by making the decision harder – even only slightly harder – it makes it more meaningful. Easy decisions in games are no fun: if they're easy to make, then everyone makes them and there's nothing to think about. If there's some cost built in, though, I think it makes the issue more real and more fun.

Maybe freeing slaves in a Democracy is "free" on account of their government system but 10Cr/ton elsewhere?

I'd also like it if freeing slaves has a chance of reducing your legal status by 1-5 points, though maybe not if you're a fugitive. If you free just 1 ton of slaves, you may not get your legal status reduced any. If you free more than 1 ton of slaves, the odds of getting 5 points off your status should be more likely.

It'd be semi-hard to buy amnesty because if you buy slaves at the main station just to do this you'd only get the option to free them when you enter the main station...and that'd mean you'd have to leave the main station first, increasing your legal status.

There could be other places where they seize your contraband and give nothing -- such as firearms at a Multi-government (thinking you're working for the other sides) or Dictatorship (don't threaten the ruler's power base).

What makes democracy anti-slavery?

Why should a systems government type impact the actions of GalCop?

I dont think we should make too many changes here. I dont think there should be a reward for freeing slaves, and I cannot see any good reason why you should be charged for it. I guess an option to give them x Cr as they are released might be nice, but I dont see a need.

Disembodied wrote:

Hi dogscoff, welcome to the boards!

Oops, yes, welcome around, dogscoff !

Sorry, I did not notice this was a first post.

Freeing slaves is good! But surely it should also be easy?
When you dock you're given the option to free them there and then. It costs you nothing, you get no reward. They're free.
If you don't opt to free them you can sell them at the station.
Can't it be that simple, really?

Yes, it could be.

The cost is in lost value and loss of cargo space. The issue I think is that last time this was discussed it wasnt easily doable in an OXP.

"What makes democracy anti-slavery?"
One of the basic beliefs of democratic systems is equality. Even if there's slavery or slave trade under a partial-democracy system... It would still be a likely place for an Amnesty Interstellar branch office, thus they'd be more willing to subsidize freeing slaves. In a darker universe version, democratic systems may even be the ONLY place to have an Amnesty Interstellar office which frees slaves and cost credits to do it...but maybe still have a chance of reducing legal status?

The cost of freeing slaves has nothing to do with GalCop, it is only another form of cargo transactions. It would be legal though highly unorthodox in the context of the universe, as best as I can tell.

The reduction of legal status WOULD be an action that directly affects GalCop, but if I'm going to pay for freeing slaves I'd like a chance of a slight legal status reduction. If you can get your offender status auto-reduced just by a fine and cleaning the station a bit...this isn't a game-breaker balance wise.

This thread also deals with freeing slaves as a side-topic:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=8236
specifically starting at:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?p=114843#114843

Switeck wrote:

"What makes democracy anti-slavery?"
One of the basic beliefs of democratic systems is equality.

Im not at all sure I agree with that. The ancient greeks had slaves and they invented democracy. Historically many democracies have not treated everyone as equal, Im thinking of equality of women and non-whites about a couple of generations ago in the USA, in the UK and most likely other places generally considered democratic.

Just because you and I live in modern democracies that do not have slaves doesnt mean democracies in general dont.

Switeck wrote:

This thread also deals with freeing slaves as a side-topic:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=8236
specifically starting at:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?p=114843#114843

Or this one I started 2 years ago https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t= ... ree+slaves

"The ancient greeks had slaves and they invented democracy."

"Zeller, in his long list of the personal virtues of Aristotle mentions his 'nobility of principles' and his 'benevolence to slaves'. I cannot help remembering the perhaps less noble but certainly more benevolent principle put forward much earlier by Alcidamas and Lycophron, namely, that there should be no slaves at all."

There has always been distance between beliefs and practices. Case in point "Communist" systems. But the beliefs are indeed there, even if only in concept/theory.
It would still be a likely place for an Amnesty Interstellar branch office. The practice of slavery nearby may even make it more likely!

In conclusion, I'm all for someone making an emancipation OXP for Oolite...but do not feel that needs to be part of core Oolite, though I have no objections if it becomes so.

My initial thoughts are that if you are William Wilberforce, space trader, and you pick up a slave container then perhaps there could be a small OXP where upon docking the base computer checks your manifest and asks if you would like to free your slaves. If you say yes then you get a flat rate bounty of 50cr. The bounty is for the rescue of the slaves, the same as if you rescue a pilot or capture a pilot (insurance or pirate bounty.) If you say no you are free to sell them on the market or keep them.

It could be expanded that slave bounties are paid in systems where the government level is Democracy and up, the idea being that the higher the government level is, the more enlightened and tolerant the population is.

Regarding the issue of having to "feed, clothe and care" freed slaves, the fact is that the issue of what happens to slaves disappears once they are out of your cargo bay. It's just not part of the gameplay. It's like taxation in the Oolite universe. It might be interesting to discuss how taxation might work in among the myriads of different govenmental systems, and how and what a galactic government might work, but in the end it doesn't affect game play. The only way taxation affects you in Oolite is the port and docking fees you may incur.

So yeah, that's my opinion.

I actually agree with Disembodied with this one. You turn up at a Galcop station - a station which must make its own oxygen, water, ship in its own food, etc. You turn up and wearing your "moral" hat - open up your cargo bay doors and shout "go on, you're free!"

Have these slaves volunteered to be slaves to escape the turmoil of their home system?

Are they disease ridden and on their last legs about to infect the whole station with a single cough?

Are they criminals who have been "turned in to" slaves by the legal system elsewhere as punishment for their crimes - slave traders even perhaps.

Somewhere as strict as a Galcop controlled station - there's no way you'd get away with just opening your bay and the cargo pods and ushering them out on to the dock side. Yeh, sure some will be gone in an instant, mingling with the crowd but others, unsure what to do, might not even leave your ship, they'd certainly hang around the dockside, begging food water, clothing, a passage on a ship back home.

Galcop would see you as a menace!

Sure have an OXP that creates possibly a charity specifically to look after freed slaves, but as D says, expect to pay!

EDIT: Removed Greengrocer's Apostrophe...