Player not the fastest ship...

[Disembodied]

You've also got to remember that a lot of the early complaints about Oolite (I'm talking pre-1.65, here) seem to be about how slow it is, and how long it takes to get from the witchpoint to the station. This was voiced even by some old Elite veterans. Personally I think they were misremembering how long it took on a BBC or Spectrum or C64, and that their attention span had atrophied over time ... but nevertheless, this is something we have to consider. In order for people to get into the game, they've got to sit through quite a few trips through peaceful (and trader-heavy) systems in an underequipped Cobra III. Even if they don't mind blowing up every ship that gets in their way, they're just not kitted out to do it. Unless you make the player slightly faster than the rest of the inbound traffic, they'll find themselves masslocked on a regular basis.

Basically, it's like the e-bombs for NPCs question: do you want to risk making the game more frustrating for the player for the sake of being "fair" to the NPCs?

[Zieman]

In order for people to get into the game, they've got to sit through quite a few trips through peaceful (and trader-heavy) systems in an underequipped Cobra III. Even if they don't mind blowing up every ship that gets in their way, they're just not kitted out to do it. Unless you make the player slightly faster than the rest of the inbound traffic, they'll find themselves masslocked on a regular basis.

A little detour off the WP-Station lane reduces the mass-locking a lot, I'd even dare say: enough.

Most of the traffic is still bound to be slower (depending of course on which OXPs are installed).

And 5-10 trips isn't that many IMHO - with Injectors even a crowded system's not that tedious.

And some downgrade to Cobra mk 1 or even Adder right away, still slower ships.

[Disembodied]

A little detour off the WP-Station lane reduces the mass-locking a lot, I'd even dare say: enough.

True, and it's the preferred method of grinding through the first few milkruns anyway – but it's a quirk of the game that usually has to be learned. It's not immediately obvious to starting players that going off-lane will be quicker. A lot of people will just get frustrated and give up.

And 5-10 trips isn't that many IMHO - with Injectors even a crowded system's not that tedious.

It takes a lot more than 5 or 10 trips, I think. It takes around 5 runs, making exactly the right trades each time (again not something you can rely on newbies knowing), before you can afford to buy and fill a large cargo bay. Then you need to save up another 600 credits to buy the injectors. And that's not counting all the normal struggles a new Jameson can have with getting shot to bits by practically any passing pirate, not to mention struggling to dock.

And some downgrade to Cobra mk 1 or even Adder right away, still slower ships.

Some do, yes: mostly though these are veterans who know the game. I appreciate we can't make the game to everyone's taste: there will always be those with attention spans lower than an ADHD goldfish. But – given that the player's Cobra III was given a speed-boost for a reason – I don't see any great benefit in removing it. Those who are hard-core enough to want it can edit the game themselves.

It's already been established that high speed is of minimal value in a dogfight. Its primary purpose would seem to be for pushing past masslocks, and basically getting on with the game rather than sitting in traffic. The gameplay has to come first. Frankly, until it was pointed out, I wasn't aware that the player's Cobra III was faster than the NPC version. I knew vaguely that NPC ships don't tend to hit their maximum speeds (probably to avoid excess masslocking too), but honestly it never bothered me.

I think it's important to ask the question: apart from just general tidiness, what would be the point of making this alteration? Is there any clear gameplay benefit? Does it make the game more fun? (I've been paranoid about this kind of thing ever since I read David Braben's rationale about making Frontier: "Yes," he said, "Newtonian physics is less fun, but it's more realistic!" What sort of games designer deliberately and consciously makes his games less fun?)

[Sendraks]

It's already been established that high speed is of minimal value in a dogfight.

I don't entirely agree. Speed allows you to control the combat arena. A high speed vessel gets into (or out of) combat range more quickly, where "combat range" is that which you want to enage an opponent at.

Certainly for running away, speed is king, especially with a fuel injector. For staying at range from an opponent, using a rear mounted laser, having a faster ship than your opponents will help enormously. Alternatively if you're the sort who prefers to attack at close range and get behind an opponent, speed helps minimise the time you're in the enemies front arc before you get behind them and start shooting.

I do agree that once you're in close range, apart from the obvious advantages of allowing you to get to range again, speed doesn't have as great a role to play.

The more important factors for the anti-ubericity debate at that point are:

Energy Banks

Energy Recharge

Handling - although as already discussed this probably has limited value. Too sensitive handling is its own handicap.

Thrust - which isn't nearly tinkered enough with as a stat. Most ships have waaaaaaaaaaay too responsive thrust, so they reach their top speed almost instantly, which is a big advantage in close range combat.

I was aware that a lot of npc ships don't hit their top speed as specified in the plists for npc ships. Not sure why this is the case, seems unnecessary to me and would up the challenge for players.

[Ganelon]

Realism, to a degree, can be good. It can help with that whole "suspension of disbelief" thing. But it could only be more important than fun if Oolite was supposed to be a realistic space simulator, rather than a game.

The main activities of Oolite are largely fast-paced action. Even a trip to the local star to sun-skim and back takes only a few minutes. A player may make the trip from the witchpoint to the planet in less than half an hour, but be in several battles in that time, pull alongside some ship of a type they haven't seen before to get a better look, maybe tag along with a ship that is flying with escorts to dabble in "formation flying" and get some nifty screenshots for their collection. The pace is more like a "space opera" sci-fi movie than it is anything realistic. If it was realistic (by current known physics) so far as distances, speeds and time, we'd likely have to fly for days (weeks, months) sometimes for anything to happen.

Much can be forgiven on the physics by remembering that the game is set something like a thousand or so years in the future. What were the trading vessels a thousand years ago? A sailboat? A horse and cart? As far in the future as this game is set, physics and transportation may have come as far from what we know now as we have from that sailboat and horse-drawn cart. A thousand years in the future, Newtonian physics may be considered as quaint and archaic as the geocentric model of the universe is considered today.

In any case, pure reality makes a rather dull game. That's why we all head off into the Ooniverse for adventure, isn't it?

[Disembodied]

The more important factors for the anti-ubericity debate at that point are:

Energy Banks

Energy Recharge

Handling - although as already discussed this probably has limited value. Too sensitive handling is its own handicap.

Thrust - which isn't nearly tinkered enough with as a stat. Most ships have waaaaaaaaaaay too responsive thrust, so they reach their top speed almost instantly, which is a big advantage in close range combat.

True, speed is an element in dogfighting, but like you say it's not the overriding one. It sounds to me though that what you're saying is that the player has too many advantages over the NPCs in combat, and that the more fun would be found in making dogfights more challenging.

This might be partly achieved by tinkering with the stats. Thrust, especially: as you say, it's barely noticeable just now as a stat. Maybe it could be lowered universally and a new piece of equipment – the Engine Booster – brought in to increase it again?

However, I think the best way of making dogfighting more challenging would be to improve the AIs. Perhaps (especially as players increase their killcount) AI accuracy could be upped. That's a significant design change, there: making the game get harder as players get better. It might be worth considering, though. Other features, like adding in a bit more bob-and-weave when they're taking damage, might help make things a bit trickier for the player when shooting the rear laser.

I was aware that a lot of npc ships don't hit their top speed as specified in the plists for npc ships. Not sure why this is the case, seems unnecessary to me and would up the challenge for players.

The most likely reason for this that I can think of is to make it easier for players to overtake them and get out of masslock. Perhaps what could be done would be to keep all NPC ships flying to a destination under the redline speed, but remove that restriction for ships in combat mode.

I say all this, of course, secure in my complete and total ignorance of how hard any of this might be to do ...

[Commander McLane]

I think Disembodied is making a very valid and important point—and one that we're sometimes in danger of forgetting. Yes, it speaks for our sense of justice—and is even sort of cute—that people around here care about the NPCs' disadvantages compared to the player. I mean, this is the spirit of true sportsmanship. But Disembodied is right, at the end of the day Oolite is designed to be fun for the player, not for the NPCs.

[Zieman]

In this aspect Oolite is more player-centered than Elite...

[Commander McLane]

In this aspect Oolite is more player-centered than Elite...

Hmm. I seriously doubt that in Elite the NPCs were more sentient and/or actively enjoying the game than in Oolite.

[Switeck]

The most likely reason for this that I can think of is to make it easier for players to overtake them and get out of masslock. Perhaps what could be done would be to keep all NPC ships flying to a destination under the redline speed, but remove that restriction for ships in combat mode.

This seems the simple and elegant solution to both problems.
Make NPC ships as fast as player ships, but under non-combat conditions (flying to a destination) they don't normally use redline speeds.

Possible exceptions are Anacondas and Pythons, they should probably stick to max speed because they're so slow.
...And even Boa 1's to a lesser degree. They're as slow or slower than their typical escorts. Boa 2's though would run off and leave their escorts, unless they're escorted by Mambas or Sidewinders. (Asps or Cobra 3's would be theoretically possible as well, but as-is even one of the Cobra 3's isn't fast enough!)

[Sendraks]

Perhaps what could be done would be to keep all NPC ships flying to a destination under the redline speed, but remove that restriction for ships in combat mode.

I like this as a solution.

I do recall in Amiga Elite that all ships travelled at their max speed, which meant when you got mass locked by a trader, you to pilot your craft away from them off the main spacelane to be able to jump again. Which was a little tedious at the time.

In oolite, you can buy a fuel injector for a pittance (something Amiga ELite didn't have) to quickly get away from being mass locked and continue on your merry way. My view is that this additional piece of equipment resolves a lot of the mass locked issues in itself.

[snork]

Now that's an interesting point, Commander McLane. While faster turn rate might not be an advantage to all players, I think it *would* be a distinct advantage to all NPCs. I don't think the AI isn't going to have difficulty aiming, you'll be in their sights as soon as they can bring the ship around unless you're using a good bit of evasion tactics.

Not sure what you meant with the double negative and all, but yes, at framerates of 16/s or lower those NPCs never have a problem hitting me, just I-player am no longer able to hit them (but from very close).

However, I think the best way of making dogfighting more challenging would be to improve the AIs. Perhaps (especially as players increase their killcount) AI accuracy could be upped. That's a significant design change, there: making the game get harder as players get better.

I would love that.
Initially I thought the game would do that. I thought the galaxies would be like "levels" in arcade games, getting harder and harder, so I stayed in galaxy 1 for quite long, until the constrictor mission forced me to move on.

[Sendraks]

Had a tinker with the thrust settings on a ship last night (The Typhoon Class Cruiser by SimonB, elmost the same as the Python ET) which has a Thrust value of 40. It accelerates pretty darn quickly for a vessel that carries 100tonnes of cargo.

I dropped the thrust value down 4 and boy did it take a while to lurch towards the redline. A thrust value of 40 is almost instaneous acceleration, whereas the value of 4 took over 5 seconds of pressing accelerate to the redline. Certainly made the ship feel a good deal more ponderous.

However, as acceleration/decceleration is tied to a single value, the ship took a while to slow down as well. Again, not a terrible thing as it gave the impression of a giant vessle coming slowly to a halt. For bigger ships in combat situations, this would make it a lot harder to dogfight.

Of course use of a fuel injector redlines the ship automatically, but thats using fuel to simply overcome the limits of a ships acceleration, which is a drawback in itself. PLus it dosn't get round the decceleration issue.

You could rationalise some of the core and oxp ships that seem a little out of kilter by tinkering with the thrust value and altering the other stats such as speed.

So the Python vs the Python ET wouldn't be a simple matter of making the latter vessel a kind of Cobra MKIII with a 100ton cargo bay. If the thrust of the native Python was dropped to make it much less responsive, the improvements to the Python ET could be in the form of much improved thrust and a slight increase in speed (say 0.28LM or 0.3LM rather than 0.35lm as it is now).

I'll need to play around with this value some more on different ships, but I think this represents a real opportunity for OXP makers to better differentiate small and large ships handling.

[Killer Wolf]

well i've banged on about this several times, but i'd really like a reduction in the engagement distances to get some good dogfighting going on. apart from the accuracy problems when the ships are tiny (he says, speaking for himself!) i think the vast improvement in models and shaders should be able to be fully enjoyed instead of the average ship kill being a 5mm wide blob of pixels. esp true if we get more into frangible parts, it's a bit pointless putting effort into a great looking ship getting blasted into ruins if some of it happens 10km out and you just see a flash or such like. i'm a WW1 flight simmer rather than a FIghting Falcon type tho, i like to be up close and personal in a dog fight than lasering some anonymous blob kilometres out.

[Ganelon]

I agree with Killer Wolf on that. It's possible to get a "close-in" kill if you are close when you hit them and stay right on their tail. Then sometimes the AI will try and shake you off with evasive manoeuvres and there's a chance for something more like an old-fashioned dogfight. The problem is, they mostly just try to evade, they aren't trying to come around and get you in their crosshairs. You mostly only see that if you're fairly close, and I'm guessing it might be the AI's routine for collision avoidance?

Most fights, though, end with having to chase your opponent while they do nothing but run. If you they start to run and you stay on their six, it's pretty much all over. I would think that at least when they figure out they can't outrun you and they're taking damage, they'd turn and fight. Only a few of them even remember they have an aft laser.

The game might need to find a new balance if the AIs tangled more aggressively with the opponent, but I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time.

In actuality though, attacking from long distances would be realistic in space using lasers. There is no reason to close in to get within range like there would be in an aircraft fight where bullets are the main weapon. Most fights would be decided from 10 km, maybe much further. But there can be advantages to projectile weapons and closer ranges. For one thing, it wouldn't be visible from halfway down the spacelanes. Heat dissipation is less of a problem (though it still can be a problem and cause jams, of course). The main drawback other than limited range would be ammo not being unlimited. Projectile weapons also tend to be cheap compared to energy beam weapons.

Perhaps it could be managed with something like pod mounted rapid-fire projectile weapons? Limit the ammo to 100 rounds or so per pod (refillable). I don't know if the game engine could actually handle it though, since "guns" have a trajectory and require leading the target and etc, as opposed to lasers where if you're on the mark when you hit the trigger it's a sure hit.

But it could be fun, anyway. Tactics would have to be more something like sniping at range with the laser and then when it heats up, move in fast to tangle and use projectile weapons at fairly close range, then scoot away a ways and try for another run with the lasers, etc.

An alternative might be a new type of laser/beam. For the sake of argument, let's call it a Burst Laser. It could fire a series of short pulses in a cluster, and as such would do less damage per second at long range than a steadier beam, but would heat up slower because of the on/off nature of it's duty cycle. If we decide that's the way the cluster bursts have to be focussed to work, then it'd be only really effective at shorter ranges. That could give a laser that acts/sounds more like a machine-gun. If the range for it was fairly short, then players or AI ships using it would have to move into closer range to engage. Make the range very short, like a km or so and add into the AI routines evasive action like barrel-rolls on their approach to try and avoid the powerful long-range beam lasers and we could possibly get some tight crazy dogfighting. Players that wanted both the short-range laser that doesn't heat up so fast (but does less damage per second) and the long range sniping capabilities could obviously mount something like a military laser on the aft of their ships. If the "Burst Laser" was only effective at all at 1 km or less and only did a lot of damage at very close range, like a couple hundred meters, it could counterbalance it enough to make it workable, maybe?

Make it a cheap weapon and then there's another reason it could be a choice weapon of pirates and etc, other than it not being visible to a player at the witchpoint when it's fired at someone halfway to the station. If the visible beam was only 1 km long, it'd be very unlikely to see it at long ranges. Prime for ambush attacks.