Antiubericity

[Cmdr Wyvern]

What like the monks? I dislike the idea of anything in a game that's so hard core it literally cannot be beaten.

I don't believe the Monk ships are unbeatable. Sure, they're brutally armed and can absorb a beating... but, they're slow, and have lasers on forward mounts only. It's not hard to exploit that weakness, once their missile store is exhausted. (Or just drop a q-mine on them.)

Monks are a challenge, but not impossible to defeat.

[Smivs]

Good thread, this...very thought provoking.
It occurs to me that even vanilla Oolite has at least two Uber ships. The first of course is the Constrictor. The specs here are outrageous, but as they're classified I won't say anything.
Look at the spec of the other:
Top speed: 0.5LM
ECM as standard
Energy banks: 9 (yes, nine!)
Recharge rate: Good (4)
Fuel range: 15 Light-years
Weapons: revolving plasma turret and 5 remote fighters.
Yes, you've guessed, it's the Thargoid Warship.
So Oolite already DOES have Uber ships. Just an observation

As an aside, what are your views on OXP NPC (non-player controlled) Uberships? Should the Ooniverse have the odd ship that is to be feared, respected and avoided?

The Constrictor is an experimental secret-project Navy ship. It is supposed to be uber by mission design. So it is perfectly justified to have it in game the way it is.

And of course it's compromised by its AI...it has to be to give Jamesons a fair crack at it.

As for the Thargoid Warships, these are meant to represent a technologically advanced alien threat. Players are supposed to run away from them at the early stages of the game and confront them only when properly equipped, if they want to have any kind of chance for success. Again, in this case, these stats are justified and are comparable to the stats of the same ship in the early Elite incarnations.

Agreed. Again this makes sense.

In my opinion, any ship that carries sufficient justification for its existence can be fair game. Obviously, I would object if things started getting silly, like having twenty five uberfighters created as secret Navy projects (especially if they get subsequently stolen) or introducing one alien species after the other, each with their own unbeatable motherships. It all comes down to common sense, at the end.

Which is how I feel.
So on to game satisfaction. Without seeming too arrogant, I have a Deadly rating and an Iron Ass Boa Clipper. I got these things by honing my skills as a combat pilot (Baddies only...I've never knowingly killed a civilian) and trading thoughtfully through 5 galaxies. And the challenge is waning. I'll happily tackle 7 or 8 pirates at a time, or pile into a load of Thargoids (Cruisers and Battleships mind, not just the standard Warships) on a Galactic Navy mission and it's almost becoming routine. Sometimes you need a bigger challenge, and whereas I don't want to see 'Indestructable' ships, I would relish a fight with something with bags of energy banks and multiple weapons.
The most fun I've had recently playing Oolite was when I loaded up my development OXP for the Contractor. It spawned two or three at a time as Pirates. They are very tough but NOT indestructable, and by God it was fun, even though I got killed more often than not. Put simply it was a challenge worthy of my skill level, whereas the 'normal' game far too often isn't anymore.

So, yes, Oolite does need Uber-ships, particularly more NPC ones...as the players get better the challenge needs to increase as well.

[Ramirez]

When it comes to the uberness of player ships, I think the thing for people to bear in mind that as there's no central authorised OXP store (and nor should there be), don't expect everything to be finely balanced against each other. This is particularly important when it comes to ships appearing in missions and flavour expansions (my particular area of interest) which may not work so well if the player is in a rather uber ship. Maybe I need to start adding serving suggestions to my OXPs, e.g. 'best enjoyed in a Cobra MkIII'!

[Cmdr James]

So, yes, Oolite does need Uber-ships, particularly more NPC ones...as the players get better the challenge needs to increase as well.

Therein lies the kernal, if the most powerful ships are available to the player, then we need more powerful NPCs, but if those are available to the player, etc.

So generally there is no real debate about tough NPCs, the complaints and discussions I am most aware of relate to ships being available to players which are really out of the league of the old ships. Faster, more energy, turrets, and only "balanced" by cost. Well, its open to debate, but to me money is no object in oolite.

If someone wants to fly a Star Destroyer then cool, noone is stopping them, but to me personally oolite is a game that works well with small cobra like ships without too many turrets.

[Pluisje]

So, yes, Oolite does need Uber-ships, particularly more NPC ones...as the players get better the challenge needs to increase as well.

Since I installed Renegade Pirates I rediscovered the edge of my seat when entering an Anarchy system.

It does make me look at a more ubership than my current Python ETS. I might even try your new ship, as my cargohauling past was very profitable.

[Smivs]

Since I installed Renegade Pirates I rediscovered the edge of my seat when entering an Anarchy system.

Mmmmm. I hadn't seen this one before, but it looks like fun. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Chrisfs]

As an aside, what are your views on OXP NPC (non-player controlled) Uberships? Should the Ooniverse have the odd ship that is to be feared, respected and avoided?

What like the monks? I dislike the idea of anything in a game that's so hard core it literally cannot be beaten.

I have to agree that the Black Monks represent that uberness. I was stunned when I looked in their stats and took the OXP out until I had time to tweak them to something tough but not practically unbeatable.

[DaddyHoggy]

As an aside, what are your views on OXP NPC (non-player controlled) Uberships? Should the Ooniverse have the odd ship that is to be feared, respected and avoided?

What like the monks? I dislike the idea of anything in a game that's so hard core it literally cannot be beaten.

I have to agree that the Black Monks represent that uberness. I was stunned when I looked in their stats and took the OXP out until I had time to tweak them to something tough but not practically unbeatable.

And yet some players have complained that the Black Monk Gunships barely get them warmed up...

[JazHaz]

When I first installed Oolite last year, I considered briefly installing the Black Monks OXP, but was put off by the stories of newbies getting caught out defaulting on loans and being killed by the gunships.

Now I just don't need the loans so have never installed the OXP.

It seems to me that the only people who might need a loan from the Black Monks are newbies who wouldn't have an iron ass, and that the gunships are too powerful for people in the early stages of the game.

[DaddyHoggy]

When I first installed Oolite last year, I considered briefly installing the Black Monks OXP, but was put off by the stories of newbies getting caught out defaulting on loans and being killed by the gunships.

Now I just don't need the loans so have never installed the OXP.

It seems to me that the only people who might need a loan from the Black Monks are newbies who wouldn't have an iron ass, and that the gunships are too powerful for people in the early stages of the game.

I installed it just to have the gunships and the monasteries in my Ooniverse - because they're lovely to look at.

[ADCK]

Depends on what the OXP creator is going for, For example, Behemoths have insane stats but are not purchasable or hostile (well not usually hostile) but if they were hampered by a stat cap they would just be laughable and totally unreallistic for a ship of that size.

Although I tend to agree about player ships, they should stick as close to the core game as possible. Easy-mode ships aren't fun in my opinion.

[Micha]

If someone wants to fly a Star Destroyer then cool, noone is stopping them, but to me personally oolite is a game that works well with small cobra like ships without too many turrets.

That is my personal preferred way of playing as well - single-pilot small-medium trader.
As far as I am concerned, of the core ships, the Boa2 is already an ubership - way too good stats compared to all the others.

And I can certainly see that an iron-ass vesion of one of those would become boring and make lots of missions too easy.

I don't care how others prefer to play, it's an individual experience after all and It's plain lots of people really enjoy a more powerful Ooniverse. Nothing wrong with that. I certainly don't advocate coding in hard limits or policing OXPs - that would be against the spirit of this great game, IMHO.

But I would be a little bit disappointed if mission/flavour OXPs start coming out which would be difficult/impossible to play in a Cobby3, either forcing the player into the arms race or foregoing a great experience.

[ClymAngus]

As an aside, what are your views on OXP NPC (non-player controlled) Uberships? Should the Ooniverse have the odd ship that is to be feared, respected and avoided?

What like the monks? I dislike the idea of anything in a game that's so hard core it literally cannot be beaten.

I have to agree that the Black Monks represent that uberness. I was stunned when I looked in their stats and took the OXP out until I had time to tweak them to something tough but not practically unbeatable.

Yeah, I sorted this problem a slightly different way. Then that's the good thing about this game 101 ways to get what you want. I would say that the monks require specific ship choice (fairly wide one but still). I challenge anyone to frag one in a worm.

I digress, I think what this game needs are badies we can all blow chunks off. The slow cut tactical down is an under used (these days) gaming device that used to be the main stay of boss battles the world over. Ships that are technically impossible to beat if your dumb enough to go straight for the core, but with a few tactics and a bit of persistence they come apart like a ripe orange.

We have this to a lesser extent now with the Tharg, it would be cool to have one the other way round; disable the fighters go for the core.

[Commander McLane]

Good discussion! One that pops up every now and then, but obviously is also needed every now and then.

Personally I am with the not-too-uber faction, and especially with the if-it-is-too-uber-I-dont-install-it faction. There are a lot of OXPs which I never even have bothered to download. In other cases I am not too shy to heavily edit the stats, if needed.

Having said that, I have of course to admit that personally I am flying an Imperial Courier, which itself verges on uberness. But the IC also represents about the limit of uberness which I am willing to accept.

As far as the "uberships in the original set" is concerned, it is well worth noting that both examples mentioned here are NPCs which are specifically designed to pose a challenge. The game engine does give some unfair advantages to the player, so it is only fair that the player also once in a while will encounter a tough NPC. The problem only arises if there are uberships available to the player. Then the uber stats add to the other advantages the player has. Only this unbalances the game.

[Smivs]

Obvious question... what is 'Uber' in ship terms?
I ask because there seem to be two areas of contention in this thread, speed and durability.

With regard to speed, I think there are two main advantages to having a fast ship. You can get to the planet quicker, which is a good thing. You can run away faster, which is a good thing. The other potential advantage is in combat ability, but this depends on your combat style. Personally I'm a long-range sniper by choice, and speed is irrelevant for this...I usually stop to have a nice stable platform for precision aiming. it works for me and I routinely pick off pirate bands (7-8 ships) without taking a single hit. Some fighting styles benefit from a higher speed, so a faster ship would be desirable in these cases. If that's your style then a fast Ubership is helpful, surely.

As far as durability goes, again it depends on what you want. A close-in dogfighter will need to be more durable than say a sniper as described above.

And this is the rub. This Dogfighter would benefit from being very fast and very durable, so the 'perfect' dogfighter would be small and manoevrable with a high speed and lots of energy banks/high recharge rate.
And this is exactly the type of ship that many people are unhappy with.
It's unbalanced in comparison with all the Core ships.

So what's the solution? Here's one. Size matters.
We perhaps should apportion sizes (physical dimensions) to equipment and cargo. A drive/thruster should be X metres cubed (M3), an energy bank should be Y M3 a laser should be Z M3 etc. For a ship to be 'Valid', the cubic capacity of the ship can be calculated from its dimensions. A sensible amount of this volume (say 5 cubic metres) should be ear-marked for crew space, and then 75% of the rest can be for gear. The left over 25% is for access ways etc, and to recognise that not every cubic centimetre is going to be useable.
The 75% of room can be filled as you see fit...loads of engines if you want speed, loads of cargo space if you want to haul stuff, loads of energy banks if you want durability, with perhaps a nominal volume for a 're-charger' - the higher the recharge rate the more 'rechargers' need to be fitted in.
Deciding on the the actual sizes of equipment could be the subject of a new thread, and one that I hope would include as many people as possible.
As it's not likely any of this will be coded into the game, I suggest a Wiki page in the OXP section could be devoted to listing the equipment and 'official' sizes thereof, and OXP authors should be strongly urged to use this method to calculate what works and what doesn't.
This method could potentially still lead to a few 'silly' ships (eg mega-fast) coming along, but at least they would be 'possible' within the parameters set, and this method would force them to be well balanced.