Oolite Bulletins

That a Python Class Cruiser does not? A question of pricing/balance really.

I'm looking to upgrade my ship from my fully kitted out Cobra III to, well something else. I have decided to skip the Python upgrade because I just couldn't take the drop in speed and manoeuverability and was looking at the next rung up the ladder. I wanted something with more cargo capacity because I just _hate_ seeing all those cargo containers that seem to be floating around going to waste whenever I visit an Anarchic system.

The BCC and (or BII Clipper for when I break my cardinal rule*) seems the obvious ultimate ship to have from the core ones available if you are to have some balance between combat and trading. There seems to be little worthwhile in between the Cobra and the BCC however so I reluctantly started looking at some of the OXP ships which on the surface didn't appear too unbalancing which led me to the Python Class Cruiser and the Python ET Special both which weigh in at 360k Cr and seemed on the surface a reasonable stepping stone to the BCC.

On closer inspection the PCC seems way overpowered for the price - it's faster, has nearly the same cargo capacity as the BCC but is slightly less manoeuverable and has one less energy bank all of which seem to put it on a par with the BCC, but it's 140k Cr less expensive. Its specs leave the base Boa in the dust but too but it costs 90k Cr less.

Am I missing something that makes this apparent price discrepancy "valid" to my weird in-game value system? Like "it breaks down all the fuggin' time and the maintenance is a killer" or "you can't fit rear military lasers, what's the point?" sort of thing? Am I just too darned paranoid?



* I'm being deliberately obtuse in attempting to restrict my choices to "core" ships for reasons of game balance - I ruined Morrowind for myself by power gaming it and have shied away from such things ever since.

I can understand you well.
To me too, there seems little reason to get any other (core) ship but the Cobra3, Boa CC, and if you can stand it the Python.

I forget why exactly I voted against Python-sth.-special in my game. Maybe because they are close to same with the Boa CC but too low in price.

Ziemann's Z-ships try to fill the gap between Cobra3 and Boa CC. (the porcupine and the python courier. porcupine a bit cheap, but well.)
However, I myself can't use them, because their existence slows down my game too much - on an ancient PC with no shaders used.
(making the ships "player-only" so they do not appear, did not really help.)

I don't know if they have too many polygons or too big textures for my old hardware.

If it weren't for that, I would have kept installed that OXP, because for me, the ships feel well-balanced into the game.
find them here :
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=7650
http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Z-ships

PS - As long as you do not reload the game, or leave the system, all them cargo pods are still flying out there, waiting for you to collect them.
Dock, sell everything, launch and go for it!

I hardly ever see some NPC scoop stuff.

Thanks for the pointers, I'll take a look at those ships, at a glance they certainly look well balanced. I wish I had seen them a while ago though - I can afford the 360k ships now (just!) which is why I was looking at those Python variants.

I didn't realise the containers stayed put once you had docked/undocked. Frankly I find that part of the game a necessary evil and don't enjoy it at all so once I'm out of scanner range of them I really don't think I could bring myself to fly back out to attempt to track them all down again!

Vested interest alert! Before I start I should point out that the Boa Clipper is my OXP.
Ok, the python is not as bad as you might think. I had two before I upgraded to a Boa Class Cruiser, and, yes, they're not the fastest thing around but they are a good workhorse and are an easy step up from the Cobra. You lose a bit of speed/maneoverabilty but gain a LOT of lugging space. The Boa is a bit pointless as it doesn't have much over the Python, except the higher price
The Boa Class Cruiser is an excellent all-rounder, and if you want to stay with Core ships you won't do much better.
Blatant Plug alert! The Clipper's extra speed makes all the difference though. 150 Tons is plenty and it's faster than a Cobby, so what more could you want. When I designed it I was very mindful of some of the other points you make (regarding the Python CC). It is not a 'miracle' ship...you do lose cargo space to make room for the extra engine, and let's be honest, it's quite expensive, but it should be. You get what you pay for, but you have to pay for what you get.

Yeah the Clipper looks rather spiffing, and at a cool half mill (and change) is reasonably priced. By the time I can afford one I'll have damn well earned it

My gut feel is to go for the ET Special given the available cash I have. It seems a reasonable halfway house, you get similar speed but less cargo carrying capacity and fewer energy banks/missile mounts than the BCC or B2C.

I guess I was really just wondering why the PCC is priced so low in comparison and if I was validly excluding it based on my lunatic game-balance criteria. On which note, a Griff Boa popped up for 150k Cr last night, madness! I had to go and take a bit of a lie down in a darkened room

One thing that the BCC has that the PCC doesn't, is the Scoop View.

Having said that though, is that Scoop View only happens on the Neolite and new Griff normalmapped Boa Class Cruisers. Other BCC's don't have it.

Even among add-on ships, there seems a real lack of ships with cargo capacity from 20-90 tons. Basically just the Cobra Mark III. Anything that falls into that range that wants to avoid being too good must be either slow, poorly shielded, unmaneuverable, cannot have many of the extra add-ons (no shield upgrades, extra energy unit, missiles, etc), and/or must be expensive relative to the standard in-game ships.

My first ship after the Cobra, was the standard Python. Probably the best upgrade would be the Python Class Cruiser though.

I'm not convinced the PCC is better than the BCC in every respect.

The BCC can carry more cargo, has more energy and has superior handling to the PCC. The BCC has only slightly less recharge than the PCC and isn't massively slower (by only 0.038LM).

The problem really is the price. The PCC is a lot cheaper (easily fixed with a p-list edit) and on stat for stat basis, equivalent or superior to the Cobra MkIII in every respect. Yes the PCC is a slightly larger target, but is otherwise a +1 vessel i.e. you pay more money for a ship that can do everything the games definitive multi-role vessel can do, and more.

This is a silliness and a pet peeve of mine. The core oolite ships have been well designed so that you have the catergories of fighter, trade and multi-role. Unfortunately rather than play within those catergories and seek out specialisations and variations for craft, a lot of OXP ships are simply +1 variations on multi-role vessels.

Sendraks wrote:

I'm not convinced the PCC is better than the BCC in every respect.

The BCC can carry more cargo, has more energy and has superior handling to the PCC. The BCC has only slightly less recharge than the PCC and isn't massively slower (by only 0.038LM).

The problem really is the price. The PCC is a lot cheaper (easily fixed with a p-list edit) and on stat for stat basis, equivalent or superior to the Cobra MkIII in every respect. Yes the PCC is a slightly larger target, but is otherwise a +1 vessel i.e. you pay more money for a ship that can do everything the games definitive multi-role vessel can do, and more.

This is a silliness and a pet peeve of mine. The core oolite ships have been well designed so that you have the catergories of fighter, trade and multi-role. Unfortunately rather than play within those catergories and seek out specialisations and variations for craft, a lot of OXP ships are simply +1 variations on multi-role vessels.

I think most people by now accept that the Python Class Cruiser is under-priced.
Having said that, many people want 'A Bit More' from their ship. It's like cars and why so many people customise and modify them. Just because something is good to start with, there's nothing that says it can't be made even better, particularly if 'better' is more how you'd want it.
A lot of the standard ships have been modified BECAUSE they are good to start with, and the mods make them a bit more useable in some way, rather than trying to make the best of a bad job.
Providing it's done thoughtfully (bigger engine means less cargo space and higher cost for example) I don't have a problem with it.
The alternative of not accepting OXPs that up-grade or modify existing ships is just not acceptable...just ask the hundreds of players out there (like me!) who use one of them.

Smivs wrote:

I think most people by now accept that the Python Class Cruiser is under-priced,

Price isn't so much of an issue really and using price as a justification is a poor argument, as there are few barrier to amassing vast amounts of cash in Oolite. Obtaining the ultimate +10 ship of sharpness, is only a matter of time.

Smivs wrote:

and that 'silly' ships have no place in the Ooniverse.

ORLY?
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=8015

The stats of that ship are silly in my view, but I'll leave my detailed comments on it for it's thread.

I agree everyone wants a bit more from their ship, but a lot of ships are designed with few if any tradeoffs. In essence everything gets to be +1 with no compromise. A lot of imagnation goes into the look and backstory for ships, but not the actual attributes of the vessel.

I think we're on the same page though, in so far that faster/tougher ships have to make tradeoffs for cargo space. More cargo space/toughness has to trade off speed. Smaller, harder to hit, ships have to trade off on cargo and toughness, while bigger ships are easier to hit but are also tougher and pack other features.

I get annoyed when I see ships that are small, fast and tough. No trade offs, no compromises.

I entirely agree with Sendraks as its very easy to spoil the game by having the ultimate ship that's just way better than anything you might meet.

Frontier First Encounters ended for me when the thargoids gave me a ship after a mission, because what they gave me was miles better than anything else. It could jump nearly 700 light years, had awesome lasers and was faster and more manoeuvrable than any other ship. So after blowing up a couple of ships easily, my interest waned and I stopped playing.

So keeping the balance of ships is important eg. if I made an Anaconda variant that was much faster, then there should be a compromise - reduced cargo size and increased price, but that's not enough. Less manoeuvrability perhaps or inability to take shield boosters - something significant.

snork wrote:

Ziemann's Z-ships try to fill the gap between Cobra3 and Boa CC. (the porcupine and the python courier. porcupine a bit cheap, but well.)
However, I myself can't use them, because their existence slows down my game too much - on an ancient PC with no shaders used.
(making the ships "player-only" so they do not appear, did not really help.)

I don't know if they have too many polygons or too big textures for my old hardware.

Glad you like the OXP!

You could try this:
open shipdata.plist & delete or comment out every subentity entry that ends in _gun