Oolite Bulletins

Something that always bothered me about the original Elite was the shallowness of the trading game. The real money was always in hauling computers from rich industrials to poor ags, and there was really nothing close in value for the return trip. And so many of the commodities were basically never worth hauling. I never found any kind of triangular (or N-lateral, N >= 4) trade route that was any better than a rich ind -> poor ag milk run.

This all makes sense considering the restrictions of the original platforms, and reading Ian Bell's site it appears that the trading game was apparently invented rather late in the development process when they found that as a straight flying-around-shooting-things-up game things got boring pretty quick.

It would feel better to me if there was another dimension rather than just the linear poor ag -> rich ind line, say some planets are mining colonies where minerals or radioactives are dirt cheap, and the prices for them on the rich ind worlds were a little higher. Or some ag planets are "frontier worlds" where the furs are 10cr/t, and the market for computers is zilch but machinery goes for 100 cr/t.

Even without an innovation like that, a lot could be done by changing the prices of some of the commodities that one doesn't generally mess with. For example suppose the rich ind. worlds don't bother with refining minerals to alloys but the avg ind ones do, or that some avg ag worlds have luxury products at 10 cr/t (think tobacco or coffee or cacao) that fetch a good price at places higher up the food chain.

It would make a lot more sense to me if the logical trade route was something like "buy computers at a rich ind. world and sell them at an avg ind. to buy machinery to sell at a poor ind or avg ag." I can think of plausible return routes starting with food from poor ag -> poor ind, where you buy minerals to take to an avg ind. world where they'll buy it to make alloys.

Not that I expect the devs to necessarily do anything like this, I'm just saying, the trading game is one of those parts of the game that is pretty 8-bit/32K.

It would be pretty neat.
There are some things you can do, but not quite of that nature.
Through OXPS, Casinos pay a lot for Liquor, AstroGulags and Astrofactories (Commies and Dictattors OXP) have a good deal on minerals and precious metals.

Agree with what Wades said. Doubt that much change should be made though.

Have you tried the BlOomberg Markets OXP? Makes for some nice variations on the economics.

Chrisfs wrote:

It would be pretty neat.
There are some things you can do, but not quite of that nature.
Through OXPS, Casinos pay a lot for Liquor, AstroGulags and Astrofactories (Commies and Dictattors OXP) have a good deal on minerals and precious metals.

Rockhermits pay well for alcohol too.. and the stuff they mine is available cheap..

"and there was really nothing close in value for the return trip."

dunno, i made a canny living doing food/textiles to the indust on the return trip. there were a couple of places w/ a good RI and PA in close proximity, could do a couple jumps before having to refuel, which helped out a poor struggling beginner.

JazHaz wrote:

Agree with what Wades said. Doubt that much change should be made though.

I'd like to have an OXP that does that, though I agree that in the core game, it should be the same (true to the original and so on). Is it even possible to change the economy types that way via OXP? BlOomberg changes a bit here and there, but adding whole new types...?

You can change economy type, type of government, and just about anything:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Planetinfo.plist

wades wrote:

Something that always bothered me about the original Elite was the shallowness of the trading game. The real money was always in hauling computers from rich industrials to poor ags, and there was really nothing close in value for the return trip. And so many of the commodities were basically never worth hauling. I never found any kind of triangular (or N-lateral, N >= 4) trade route that was any better than a rich ind -> poor ag milk run.

This all makes sense considering the restrictions of the original platforms, and reading Ian Bell's site it appears that the trading game was apparently invented rather late in the development process when they found that as a straight flying-around-shooting-things-up game things got boring pretty quick.

It would feel better to me if there was another dimension rather than just the linear poor ag -> rich ind line, say some planets are mining colonies where minerals or radioactives are dirt cheap, and the prices for them on the rich ind worlds were a little higher. Or some ag planets are "frontier worlds" where the furs are 10cr/t, and the market for computers is zilch but machinery goes for 100 cr/t.

Even without an innovation like that, a lot could be done by changing the prices of some of the commodities that one doesn't generally mess with. For example suppose the rich ind. worlds don't bother with refining minerals to alloys but the avg ind ones do, or that some avg ag worlds have luxury products at 10 cr/t (think tobacco or coffee or cacao) that fetch a good price at places higher up the food chain.

It would make a lot more sense to me if the logical trade route was something like "buy computers at a rich ind. world and sell them at an avg ind. to buy machinery to sell at a poor ind or avg ag." I can think of plausible return routes starting with food from poor ag -> poor ind, where you buy minerals to take to an avg ind. world where they'll buy it to make alloys.

Not that I expect the devs to necessarily do anything like this, I'm just saying, the trading game is one of those parts of the game that is pretty 8-bit/32K.

You could also install YAH - those Constores occasionally offer crazy prices for stuff - sometimes when I jump into a system I'll check the system prices - dock with the Constore - off load my cargo - fill up with something else - fly to the main station - sell it, fill up with something else, fly back out to the constore, sell it, re-buy my original cargo and return to the main station and sell as intended (because the standard Oolite game, like Elite, doesn't update commodity prices or the amount available until you leave the system - you can do this) - even in my Cobby3 I can sometimes make 10K without leaving the system.

As for return trip...if you dare to go to more lawless systems (like feudal or worse) and have YAH and your rich industrial has enough TL, furs are definitely worth it, they can go as high as 30 cr profit/ton.

Sarin wrote:

As for return trip...if you dare to go to more lawless systems (like feudal or worse) and have YAH and your rich industrial has enough TL, furs are definitely worth it, they can go as high as 30 cr profit/ton.

The Constores will occasionally have a glut of Narcotics for sale at around 2-3Cr a TC when the main stations are buying/selling at 100Cr/TC

(Oddly enough, they will sometimes be offering to buy food (even in a Agri' system for 100Cr/TC - Doc. Nil said this was because they'd have a new batch of liberated slaves and/or a glut of captured pirates and rogues that needed feeding and everybody was jumping out of system with the food based cargo and not visiting the 'store - others have said he got the commodities plist wrong - but I prefer the 1st explanation - it fits into the Ooniverse better!)

It can be both, it won't be the first ingame explanation for something that creator messed up- Star Trek, for example, have a long history of those.

It's true that a lot of commodities tend to get ignored. Frontier had a wider range available, plus I remember systems were listed with main imports and exports so you could target your trading a bit more. I don't know if prices actually varied to match or if this was just a bit of non-functional flavour to keep things interesting.

I do like the idea of having a more detailed plan when it comes to trading. When you start out in Oolite, you do have to restrict yourself to the lower-end commodities and it's fun trying to work out which products to trade - what killer deal will make you enough cash to get a docking computer, for example. However, by the time you can afford a whole load of luxuries or computers, there's no point dabbling in the other commodities unless there's a special reason to do so (hence BlOomberg Markets).

The way the prices are at the moment, there's little benefit in working up through the commodities, especially ones which have a fairly flat economy variation (see the graph in the BlOomberg Markets thread).

A possibility I've thought of would be a trading post concept, where commodities are exchanged rather than bought or sold, with a small but significant markup in favour of the player. Say for example you deliver 10t of machinery to an agricultural system, and they exchange it for 32t of Liquor/Wines based on local prices. If you then take this to a Rich Industrial you'd could get a better return than if you'd bought the Liquor/Wines on the open market. If the goods that each type of trading post can exchange are limited, you can create a trading path rather like wades suggested, where you go up or down through the commodities, making a little bit of profit each time, instead of resorting to the usual Industrial-Agricultural computers run.

This wouldn't replace the core trading mechanism but would offer an alternative for the some of the lower value commodities that don't usually get a look-in.

I agree with the OP.
The very most of the commodities (unless scooped) I never trade with.
Every 2nd or 3rd time I actually do have a little food in the cargo bay I end up dumping it in space, so I can scoop (most probably) more valuable items.
It seems like a wasted occasion to me.

Killer Wolf wrote:

"and there was really nothing close in value for the return trip."

dunno, i made a canny living doing food/textiles to the indust on the return trip. there were a couple of places w/ a good RI and PA in close proximity, could do a couple jumps before having to refuel, which helped out a poor struggling beginner.

That is with a Python or larger, I assume ?
With the 35t Cobra3, you have to leave so-and-ao much free, when traveling to dubious systems, for scooping.

DaddyHoggy wrote:

You could also install YAH ...

About OXPs altering or extending this vanilla Oolite trading : It is not just my poor hardware specs that keep me from trying them out, it is also the to me horrible experience with yah, which imo. messed the whole economy / trading thing up.

Particularly so if you are a poor starting Cobra3 pilot with no nice equipment and no money.

*wanders off to the yah topic*

snork wrote:

I agree with the OP.
The very most of the commodities (unless scooped) I never trade with.
Every 2nd or 3rd time I actually do have a little food in the cargo bay I end up dumping it in space, so I can scoop (most probably) more valuable items.
It seems like a wasted occasion to me.

Killer Wolf wrote:

"and there was really nothing close in value for the return trip."

dunno, i made a canny living doing food/textiles to the indust on the return trip. there were a couple of places w/ a good RI and PA in close proximity, could do a couple jumps before having to refuel, which helped out a poor struggling beginner.

That is with a Python or larger, I assume ?
With the 35t Cobra3, you have to leave so-and-ao much free, when traveling to dubious systems, for scooping.

DaddyHoggy wrote:

You could also install YAH ...

About OXPs altering or extending this vanilla Oolite trading : It is not just my poor hardware specs that keep me from trying them out, it is also the to me horrible experience with yah, which imo. messed the whole economy / trading thing up.

Particularly so if you are a poor starting Cobra3 pilot with no nice equipment and no money.

*wanders off to the yah topic*

I'm perplexed - why does YAH mess up trading/economy - I recently restarted a new pilot and found YAH very useful for the green Jameson to get lucky on occasion with huge differentials in prices - unless this is what you mean?

As discussed elsewhere, the Constores with the ridiculous Food&Textile prices are always the same ones.

As such, it could be argued it makes it way too easy to earn vast amounts of money with little or no risk.

Particularly when you consider that bar bs gur fgberf nssrpgrq vf va gur qvfb flfgrz.