Oolite Bulletins

In the spirit of going forward from the whole mess about RS and OSE and not repeating the same sorry situation, how should meta OXPs be handled from now on?

Question 1: Is there a need for an OXP to be rolled into a wrapper OXP?

Question 2: Should developers wishes be respected in regards to modifying their work?

Question 3: Is the CC licensing model appropriate for the small-scale developments that OXPs are? Is CC more aimed towards larger bodies of work to avoid the creator having to deal with copious amounts of emails saying "can I use your stuff?".

I'm not trying to put any opinions on here as to what the end result should be. I feel that this community is of a size that should be able to deal with any OXP fair use issues within the community rather than going down this licensing and legal route.

For what it's worth, my opinion is a simple one: as far as I'm concerned, and sorry if this is old-fashioned, the creator (if present on the board) should be approached before a third party changes or appropriates their work and asked permission. If this is granted, good show. If not, don't use it in a derivative work. Simples.

It's respectful and considerate and should hopefully reduce the arguments?

To illustrate a point, I cite my own projects and my opinion on their availability:

Dream Team: Please don't do anything with these other than install them - they are unfinished and still WIP and are highest priority of my Oolite stuff.

Spyhunter, Eagle MkII, IC, Other ship OXPs: If you want to mod them or do stuff with them, ask me - I'm always around to ask. Don't do it without asking please.

Thargoid Carrier, Tionisla Graveyard: Unfinished, I don't mind what happens to them, if you want to finish them, go ahead, but all I ask is that I get mentioned as the creator (co-creator in the TOGY case). You don't even have to ask.

If other people have a similar range of cares about their work, then it becomes difficult to apply a licensing model and makes the personal approach more important.

Can I take Thargoid carrier, make a finished version, then request noone changes it? I dont want to do so, I want to explore what you are saying.

Furthermore, can I create a Thargoid carrier, and sell the OXP, or are we talking purely about non-commercial use?

Can I take the Thargoid carrier, and use the models to make a cruisliner, or does it need to be a thargoid?

@Selezen

If this is your suggestion (not saying it's a bad one) then such concerns/issues would have to appear on the wiki page, in a readme within the oxp otherwise mistakes will be made - and it will be up to you to keep your mind set for each oxp up to date (i.e. you're suddenly struck by inspiration - and in a blaze of glory do something wondrous with TOGY that makes it your baby your star OXP and you put up a new copy linked from the wiki, anybody coming across this thread alone, downloads TOGY hacks it about and re-releases it - "Ye gads! What have you done to my beautiful OXP!?" etc...)

Ahruman raised the licensing for a reason - does Ahruman do anything without a reason? While we may feel that CC (et al all variants thereof) license is OTT for OXPs would we have been in this mess had OXPs been licensed as either "don't care" or "don't fiddle with" (ND) right from the start? Would L have to have spat the dummy after 2yrs of hard graft?

I shrug because I don't know.

As I mentioned in the licensing thread, the most important aspect of a license is that it expresses intent. People dismiss licenses as complex and throw around phrases like “common sense”, “common courtesy” and “fair play” as though they meant something, but in fact they are worse than meaningless because they sound definite while actually not specifying anything.

The only way to avoid (or at least minimize) conflicts over what is fair and polite is to specify, in advance, how your work can be used. It is utterly infeasible for Joe Random to do this and cover all cases – if you do, you will certainly fail – which is why pre-fab licenses are a Good Thing. Their main purpose is to classify all expected and unexpected uses into categories, and state which are permitted.

CC licenses in particular have a convenient “deed” which summarizes the intent, and a detailed “legal code” for when hair-splitting is needed.

And yes, CC licenses are suitable for small scope projects. Their use ranges from individual stick figure drawings to entire encyclopædias. (There are situations where CC licenses are not appropriate, such as compiled software, which is why Oolite’s license changed last year.) There’s also a spiffy and detailed FAQ.

Also note that you can add a comment, in addition to the license, saying that you’d appreciate being asked even if the license doesn’t require it. This would provide an “emergency orphaning valve” in case you fall off the edge of the Earth.

Thargoid wrote:

Good - the use of the repair bots scripting in CA's Caduceus. Aside from the fact I didn't know anything about it until PMW57 brought it up (which is no big problem), I was very happy to see it used in such a way.
[/color]

Naughty Wyvern for not informing me of the origins of that particularly delectable bit of code. You shall be credited immediately sir!

Selezen wrote:

Question 1: Is there a need for an OXP to be rolled into a wrapper OXP?

Question 2: Should developers wishes be respected in regards to modifying their work?

Question 3: Is the CC licensing model appropriate for the small-scale developments that OXPs are? Is CC more aimed towards larger bodies of work to avoid the creator having to deal with copious amounts of emails saying "can I use your stuff?".

I've included Qs 2&3 in the quote above just for the sake of reference. This post will not touch upon those issues at all. I am waving my magic wand, declaring that for the remainder of this post all issues regarding use of any specific OXP have been solved.


So, dealing with question 1...
The short answer: YES!

I find it very useful thinking about it in terms of a commercial venture, trying to sell a product. To please the customer, you want to give the most bang for the bucks. Anyone approaching the wonderful world of OXPs for the first time is likely to be at least a little intimidated by the sheer numbers. I would say it's fairly safe to assume that for every person posting "Help newbie to choose OXPs" on the forum, there's at least one who took one look at the massive list of OXPs and plainly gave up.

To quote myself from elsewhere:

In a perfect version, every OXP ever written would be included in one big bundle, accompanied by a piece of software allowing the user to de/select all these optional extras with a few clicks. Categories and subcategories would allow the user to add all the extra ships, or none of them, or dig deeper and add just the Star Wars set, or dig even deeper and add just the X-Wing.

This, of course, is a pipe dream.
There's middle ground to be found though.
It should be well within the capabilities of the group to create something that would reduce the number of separate downloads needed to get started.

A couple of example packages:
[Note, each package would be clearly marked, both in its download location on the wiki and in a readme within the package with a statement along the lines of "This is a collection of OXPs by several different authors. The versions were current as of [date]. Be advised, however, that newer versions may exist. Check the individual OXP page for details."]

The Complete Ship Package.
Pretty self explanatory.

The Complete Missions Package.
Ditto.

The Starter Package
Extra ships restricted to those that won't increase difficulty. Ie no turrets, multiple forward lasers etc.
Some useful extra equipment. Like Fuel Tank eg.
Eyecandy.
Galaxy 1 Missions.

The Everything Package
Well, everything. Maybe a warning about possible incompatibilities would be in order...


My main selling point is simply this:
To lower the threshold for the neophyte Ooliteer.
I strongly feel that presenting the new user with half a dozen quick download options to get them started would be a much better approach than the current one.


And please note that with the exception of the extra readme/table-of-contents, nothing would be added, subtracted or edited. The end product would be exactly the same as you would get by downloading each individual OXP.

Cmdr James wrote:

Can I take Thargoid carrier, make a finished version, then request noone changes it? I dont want to do so, I want to explore what you are saying.

Simple answer, YES. Once the theoretical "I" say that it's yours, you do what you want.

Cmdr James wrote:

Furthermore, can I create a Thargoid carrier, and sell the OXP, or are we talking purely about non-commercial use?

Purely non-commercial use. If you want to sell it, I don't really care, because (especially in the case of Thargoid Carrier) by the time you make it worth selling and worth buying it will be so far unlike my original work that probably nothing of my original code or models would exist. And as long as my name was in there somewhere I would be happy to let you take all the money. Besides, Giles and Braben would kill you. Not me.

Cmdr James wrote:

Can I take the Thargoid carrier, and use the models to make a cruisliner, or does it need to be a thargoid?

Like I said, do what you like! It's yours!

@DaddyHoggy

I agree with you there. If something like my post was actioned it would have to be heavily refined. My post was more of a rough ghost of an idea than an actual idea. I just think it might be an idea to tighten up the concept of what a Meta OXP should include. Each wiki page for each OXP could have a listing of what that OXP's licensing model is, for example.

Your outline of the TOGY mod is one of the things that branching source control software can manage, and is something that happens all over the place on things like Berlios. If someone created a version of TOGY that was mega, then good luck to them! If someone created one that was crap, then good on them for trying! The fact is that since it was made freely available and that fact was on record, there's nothing to complain about, and there's nothing stopping me going back to the original TOGY and making my own version, which would not take anything away from the other creators! The interesting thing is that if I wanted to use anything from the other developer's version of TOGY, then I would be required to ask them permission to use their stuff! Which is perfectly fine by me!!!

If we had had a strict licensing model in place from the start then you're right, this whole RS/OSE issue would have been easy to manage, and RS and OSE would probably never have seen the light of day in the form they took. I don't know if L would have stayed around, because he comes across as being very inflexible, but that's a discussion for another time.

@ Ahruman: I'm not taking an "anti-licensing" standpoint, since I think that licensing is going to be important to avoid this sort of thing happening again. So far on this board there's been a "gentlemen's agreement" about this stuff, but the recent unpleasantness has highlighted that the bigger Oolite gets the more this will change. The problem is that there are a lot of OXPs out there already that have no licenses and the people in charge of them would have to tighten that up. One question to pose is "can I change the licensing agreement for OXPs I have already released?" In theory, yes, if an agreement is reached that the primary place to find out what the license is for an OXP is, say, the wiki page of that OXP. It gets publically stated that if there is a discrepancy exists between the OXP's internally stated license and the wiki, then the wiki page takes precedence.

@CheeseRedux: I'll only address point 1. There is the facility within oolite for an OXP to override the shipdata and shipyard files for individual OXPs, thanks to both Lestradae and Ahruman. I therefore strongly believe that a Meta OXP could stand on its own without needing to roll all the OXPs in with itself. Benefits include a smaller download and more control for the user in which OXPs are installed. This is especially useful for those with older computers that may not be able to handle ALL the OXPs in one go.

It's tidier as well, and makes the whole Oolite system even more modular. Someone who has, for example, been playing Oolite for years and has an eclectic mix of OXPs could install a meta OXP and instantly benefit instead of having to either replace or remove their old OXPs or remove some of the content from the meta oxp.



Gone on long enough now...

I didnt answer your questions, so here goes:

1) Ideally, I would like to see packages, BUT considering the problems of updating etc. I dont think its worthwhile.
2) Yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt
3) Yes, CC is fine for OXPs

Selezen wrote:

It gets publically stated that if there is a discrepancy exists between the OXP's internally stated license and the wiki, then the wiki page takes precedence.

No. Bad idea. That is contrary to established practice elsewhere; it would only serve to cause confusion and error where OXP and wiki disagree. I think that I can safely say that it wouldn't stand up should it ever be tested in court.

My personal view is that i don't particularly see the need for meta OXPs. one of the benefits of having everything separate is that i pick and choose what i want. i don't want star wars ships ~ they were nice enough models but the specs were stupid ~ so i don't install that OXP any more. If i install RS or whatever bundles all OXPs together, presumably i then have to trawl through and remove what i don't want, which kinda defeats the purpose, i'm thinking.
Now, smaller GROUPED OXPs i could live w/, depending what was in them. say someone made a "freighters" OXP that gathered all the massive ships into one easy download, or all the new Navy ships etc. Grouped for easy download, not amended or adapted, just gathered for easiness w/ a common theme.

Should developers' wishes be respected? Of course, that should go w/out saying. If someone DOESN'T, then i would expect the community to kinda police this themselves. People will not download the OXP and maybe that person will find it harder to get help when they need it. If someone wanted to take my Vampires and adapt one I'd help them all i could. If someone wanted to take one and release an OXP where they were all pink w/ flower decals and no guns, i'd say no. if they did it anyways, there's not much i could do about it, but if they didn't respect me, i'd never answer any of their questions on the boards etc.

this whole game and OXPability is based on sharing. The game is here cos Giles wanted to share it. the awesomeness of the updates and bells and whistles are because Ahruman etc wanted to share the improvements. My Vampires and upcoming projects were possible only because people were willing to share their work and knowledge. we'd be a bit silly if we start letting licences and legalities start affecting this, IMO.

Selezen wrote:

Question 1: Is there a need for an OXP to be rolled into a wrapper OXP?

There is no need to do this in my opinion. There is no real gain in rewrapping them all inside one single oxp in comparison to redistribute them zipped as several single files in one distribution archive.

Updating of single components in a big wrapper oxp becomes virtually impossible. You would need a specialised installer that keeps track of which files or file-parts that have to be removed from the old version. Also the user will not know exactly what he has installed which can lead to confusion.

A package of oxps with similar ships or oxps that like to be used together is something different. You don't have to modify the single files and when one of the enclosed files has to be updated, than that single file can easily be replaced.

Eric Walch wrote:

Selezen wrote:

Question 1: Is there a need for an OXP to be rolled into a wrapper OXP?

There is no need to do this in my opinion.

I agree completely. Realistic Shipyards tried to achieve a goal of balancing out the ship costs with the capabilities of the ship. This is a laudable goal and worked well. The downfall was when L decided that it needed to have all the OXPs inside itself in order to work. At that point, me being me, I would have stopped.

Fundamentally I don't think any OXP should automatically change anyone's work. If things need balancing, the OXP author can do this him/herself. That's what the V2 Imp Courier is all about - fixing what was wrong with the V1.

Selezen wrote:

@CheeseRedux: I'll only address point 1. There is the facility within oolite for an OXP to override the shipdata and shipyard files for individual OXPs, thanks to both Lestradae and Ahruman. I therefore strongly believe that a Meta OXP could stand on its own without needing to roll all the OXPs in with itself. Benefits include a smaller download and more control for the user in which OXPs are installed. This is especially useful for those with older computers that may not be able to handle ALL the OXPs in one go.

It's tidier as well, and makes the whole Oolite system even more modular. Someone who has, for example, been playing Oolite for years and has an eclectic mix of OXPs could install a meta OXP and instantly benefit instead of having to either replace or remove their old OXPs or remove some of the content from the meta oxp.

Okay, I see we're really talking about different beasts here. You're talking about an O(S)E-mini here, with all of the functionality, but none of the content (if that made sense to anyone but me). I'm advocating bundling a bunch of OXPs together to help the newbie get started.

Killer Wolf wrote:

My personal view is that i don't particularly see the need for meta OXPs. one of the benefits of having everything separate is that i pick and choose what i want. i don't want star wars ships ~ they were nice enough models but the specs were stupid ~ so i don't install that OXP any more. If i install RS or whatever bundles all OXPs together, presumably i then have to trawl through and remove what i don't want, which kinda defeats the purpose, i'm thinking.
Now, smaller GROUPED OXPs i could live w/, depending what was in them. say someone made a "freighters" OXP that gathered all the massive ships into one easy download, or all the new Navy ships etc. Grouped for easy download, not amended or adapted, just gathered for easiness w/ a common theme.

[underlined for emphasis]

Yes. My point exactly.
The Wiki lists a whooping 206 OXPs at the moment. For the veteran, it's a wonderful source of freedom and diversity. For the new guy (and that's me, a month and a half ago) it's a source of confusion and quite likely to overwhelm.

Here's the progression I'd like to see:
1) Discover & download Oolite
2) Discover the OXP concept
3) Download a StarterBundle or five
4) Start cherry picking OXPs
5) Start writing your own stuff

As it is right now, there's a big leap between 2 & 4. Something to bridge that gap could only help recruit more people. Myself, I will never go beyond 4, but it's a crying shame if we lose potential OXP writers at stage 2.

I am fully aware of the reluctance to "tell" people which OXPs to get because they're the "best". But as the number of OXPs continue to grow, the task of picking your first few ones will eventually become insurmountable to anyone but the most determined and dedicated. Can we really expect that from someone who discovered Oolite half an hour ago?

CheeseRedux wrote:

<snip>

The Complete Ship Package.
Pretty self explanatory.

The Complete Missions Package.
Ditto.

The Starter Package
Extra ships restricted to those that won't increase difficulty. Ie no turrets, multiple forward lasers etc.
Some useful extra equipment. Like Fuel Tank eg.
Eyecandy.
Galaxy 1 Missions.

The Everything Package
Well, everything. Maybe a warning about possible incompatibilities would be in order...


My main selling point is simply this:
To lower the threshold for the neophyte Ooliteer.
I strongly feel that presenting the new user with half a dozen quick download options to get them started would be a much better approach than the current one.


And please note that with the exception of the extra readme/table-of-contents, nothing would be added, subtracted or edited. The end product would be exactly the same as you would get by downloading each individual OXP.

Hmm, a complete ship package - this includes buggy ships such as the Orb? The overpowered Star Trek Constitution, the Star Wars ships, the Ixian ships from Dune, the oddly designed (jokey) Space Invader style ships? I'd spend most of my time ripping out half of those ships I'd just put in - and - does the complete package add to or replace the original set? Does Simon B's ships (included in this mythical pack) replace the original as it does now, do Griff's replace Simon's - will I ever see the DW Cobra3 again or the first Shadered Cobra 3? I'd have to take the meag pack and immediately start hacking it up - therefore no point in installing it - might as well download the OXPs I want.

Complete Mission Pack? Why? It includes missions I can't play because I'm in the wrong galaxy? Or don't yet have enough kills? Or will get my new Jameson 'vaped the second he leaves the station? Each one needs ignoring each one eating up precious clock cycles? Missions that break other missions (including the in-house ones) because the original OXP creators specifically stated this oxp doesn't work with this oxp or this oxp etc? Are you going to fix all the incompatibilities or do you expect the original creators to do it for you (this is how it started with L). As Oolite expands and the code changes and new stuff is added to the js engine - who is responsible for sucking back in new oxps when the original authors update theirs? Fixing new incompatibilities? (it's starting to sound like O(S)E again already).

And do the missions in your starter pack replace the ones in your "Complete Missions Pack"? and if you install the starter pack first and then later swap it out for the Complete Mission Pack then it will put back the missions you've just taken out (and no longer need because they're complete) and if the Starter missions aren't in the Complete Mission Pack then it's not a Complete Mission Pack...

And what's wrong with each new member asking about which are the best OXPs? I revisit the list each time somebody asks, I give recommendations based on my personal experiences - to say "Oh just download Mega-packs 1,2 and 3" is lazy - this is still the friendliest board this side of Riedquat and every noobie question is treated with the same amount of respect and attention - ocassionally they're pointed at the wiki or the FAQ but never in a lazy, can't be arsed way, always in a constructive, here-is-some-additional-info-for-you way.

I've lived on this board for three years - it has always been like this, and while I'm on it, it always will be.

There really was no need for OE - RS was a good idea but even that stepped on some toes - especially when an author had chosen his price for a reason (even given it a back-story to justify it) only to find RS recalculated based on L's idea of ship pricing irrespective of author's original intent, wishes or reasoning. We should have heard the first hammer falls even then - but we're a friendly bunch, we accommodated, we respected L's wishes even if we didn't agree with them fully and look where that got us...

Well, unless something I absolutely must respond to comes up, I think I'm done on the matter now.

I'm all squawked out.