Licensing OXPs

Discussion and information relevant to creating special missions, new ships, skins etc.

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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by phkb »

I think it's possible to include items with different (but compatible) licenses in the one release, but have your release under a license different to the components. For example, looking at my code editor, VS Code, it uses the Chromium component, and the list of components Chromium uses it quite large. Yet they each have a separate and different license: some under Apache v2.0, some under BSD, some under Mozilla Public License v2.0, some under the GNU Lesser GPL. VS Code, though, is distributed under the MIT License. I think, so long as you're reproducing the license information from the original material, and crediting the original authors, and the original license doesn't exclude reuse/redistribution, you should be OK.

But I'm not a lawyer, and this assumption is based on what I see in the wild.
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by Milo »

Makes sense. Thanks phkb. I was fixated on the idea of a single license to cover everything.

Since we can upgrade a CC-BY-NC-SA 3.0 license to 4.0, and CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 is one-way compatible with GPLv3, we can take work under CC license, mix it with work under GPLv3, and release under GPLv3. In theory this means we could apply GPLv3 to the entire mod. But, since CC is more flexible, I think it will be better to use GPLv3 only for the parts that use Priority AI and CC for the rest.
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by Cholmondely »

Questions.

Galactic Navy.
Would it be possible to publish this without license on the Expansions Manager on condition that it is only updated by an Override?

Killer Wolf's oxp's.
I think that he gave these a license without giving them a formal license (which he was against). Vide:
jeez....i'm off for a day and the Community just about falls apart :-(

i understand Sung's miff at having the name taken off, i hope he just overreacted due to language probs. i do art myself, have a site (where my oxp is) and browsing google i found a shed load of my images were on a girlie's MySpace site. but, i mailed her nicely first saying, i don't mind but would you just put a note saying KW did them? she was nice as ninepence and rather frantic that she might've upset someone. i can't help feeling the only reason Sung did these was that he wanted payment, or a contract as a result of his work, and when that didn't come, he wasn't happy.

@Charlie :
"Sung has done these textures & clearly feels they are his intellectual property, and so can dictate 'terms of use'.
Concerns about what B&B may think of this aside, Sung is quite correct as far as I understand such things. "
i have no argument there...but at the same time, isn't submitting an OXP an acceptance of it being "got at" by people who might wanna pick it apart etc? i am aware that my textures are freely available to anyone w/ PShop etc - if they wanna mess w/ them, nowt i can do about it - i will only throw a strop if they release a far better texture than i did :-D

now, while i would be hugely chuffed if someone thought my Vampires worthy enough of being used in their OXPs even if they didn't ask, i WOULD get huffed if that someone made it out to be their work, ie the readme didn't say "Vampires nicked from IsisInterstellar OXP" or such. but then, if they did that, i'd mention it on the boards, and see what happened - no doubt the community would police matters by making feelings known. still, since i'm not losing money by someone stealing my ships, it's hardly a huge matter.

re the B&B thing - an argument could be made that Oolite doesn't rip them off (in any sense of the term), it actually benefits them : Braben's working on Elite IV next, how chuffed would he be that fanboy projects are keeping his audience alive and hungry? we all know that whatever he does will be lightyears ahead of what Oolite is, so this is no threat to him or his money. personally, if i saw my work was the subject of this much adoration 20+ years down the line i'd be over the moon - we can but hope he maybe drops in to say hi sometime.

in short (?!) - LittleBear : you've been a huge help to me and many others. PLEASE don't give up cos Sung hoyed a strop. no one else here (i hope) thinks what you did was malicious, and if Sung has a prob w/ that, well let him go. his textures were ok, but not the be-all and end-all of Oolite, and given the choice of his texture pack that i wouldn't load, and you around w/ your help and output, i have no hesitation in what i would pick.
Reference: Taken from the locked thread (Feb 2007) at https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?p=30445#p30445
Killer Wolf wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:47 am
"It is amoral to not properly license These unlicensed oxp's need to properly highlighted with a toxic label on the wiki. "
well that's your opinion. i have refused to put licenses in any of my OXPs. i come here and make stuff for the fun of it, and to share it around. the licenses are a (to me) obnoxious element that only seemed to raise its head when lestradae started trying to justify his OXP. as has been stated multiple times, this always seems to have been a respect issue, not a legal one. i put my ships and station up there for people to use, play w/ and (i hope) appreciate. if they want to incorporate them into their own work, they can. i would assume if anyone wanted to, they would have the courtesy to ask first, as Drew did. if someone wants to incorporate them and go changing their specs and/or stats w/out asking, as Real Shipyards did, well that's up to them. I ain't happy about it, but neither am i going to get het up about it because the Oolite i run here has my own OXPs on so i'm unaffected.

i wouldn't dream of going an messing w/ another OXP especially when it's been made abundantly clear the creator was against it. i think this whole debacle could've been avoided w/ some simple courtesy and respect rather than 50 page debates, strops and legal BS.

i mean, jesus - we all share and learn from each other don't we? there's absolutely nothing more simple to this whole thing that ASKING to borrow/incorporate/adapt someone else's work. that's all, just ASK. if they say no, for whatever reason, just suck it up and deal w/ it.
Killer Wolf wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:54 am
Cheers DaddyHoggy, i knew the whole Sung thing got hopelessly convoluted. I coulda sworn there was one thing where someone did a whole bunch of textures and the implication was he was expecting to make some kinda income from them, but i may be thinking about a completely different thread altogether.

as i said, if we're all going to put licenses in etc then i'll do that in order not to rock boats or create future probs. i just find it a little sad that it's come to this, that we've ended up w/ a 60-page discussion on legalities rather than the game and how to improve it :-(
Killer Wolf wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:17 am
tupe666 wrote:
Killer Wolf wrote:
"It is amoral to not properly license These unlicensed oxp's need to properly highlighted with a toxic label on the wiki. "

well that's your opinion. i have refused to put licences in any of my OXPs. i come here and make stuff for the fun of it, and to share it around. the licences are a (to me) obnoxious element that only seemed to raise its head when lestradae started trying to justify his OXP. as has been stated multiple times, this always seems to have been a respect issue, not a legal one. i put my ships and station up there for peope to use, play w/ and (i hope) appreciate. if they want to incorporate them into their own work, they can. i would assume if anyone wanted to, they would have the courtesy to ask first, as Drew did. if someone wants to incorporate them and go changing their specs and/or stats w/out asking, as Real Shipyards did, well that's up to them. I ain't happy about it, but neither am i going to get het up about it because the Oolite i run here has my own OXPs on so i'm unnaffected.

i wouldn't dream of going an messing w/ another OXP especially when it's been made abundantly clear the creator was against it. i think this whole debacle could've been avoided w/ some simple courtesy and respect rather than 50 page dabates, strops and legal BS.

i mean, jesus - we all share and learn from each other don't we? there's absolutely nothing more simple to this whole thing that ASKING to borrow/incorrporate/adapt someone else's work. that's all, just ASK. if they say no, for whatever reason, just suck it up and deal w/ it.
Its not an opinion; Its fact. Its a little sick to refer to terms like respect when, you haven't clearly licensed your content.

Do not give me nonsense that not having a license is about sharing if what replaces a real license is terms you pull from your arse will and impose through vilification under the banner of respect.

wow, you really do help a forum don't you?
i'd ask you to explain how giving stuff freely, not bound by a licence, is sick, but i'm not even remotely interested in your answer.


So why did Killer Wolf take down his Purgatory website?

Look here: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11576 And note that the trolls have left our community.

Comments:
1) egregious typos corrected
2) I hope that I have been honestly representing his opinion. What I copy above is certainly correct as I understand it. Please check out the threads above.

Both Montana & I see no objection to posting his oxp's on the Expansions Manager if his wishes as presented above are honoured.

A license is all very well and good, but at the end of the day it is just one of a number of different ways in expressing a wish. It is legally binding, yes, but so are other ways of doing the same thing. It seems to me that Killer Wolf understood what he said much better than many people who slap a license on their oxp without comprehending all the gobbledegook.

Nowadays we tend to force things into pigeon holes which may be fun for us pigeonholers but is not the only way of doing things.
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by Cody »

And note that the trolls have left our community.
Calling them trolls is a little harsh. Over-derailment coupled with over-reaction was the main cause of KW's leaving.

Trying to divine KW's wishes/intentions re his OXPs ain't easy. I'll back away from that, and turn a blind eye!
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by hiran »

We can get around licensing issues somehow.

If someone takes a not clearly licensed OXP, get the inspiration and creates his own version of it, he can also put a license of his choice on the code.
That is some effort, but if the original and unclear OXP seems worth it...

If it is not worth it then let it rest in peace.
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by montana05 »

hiran wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:22 am
We can get around licensing issues somehow.

If someone takes a not clearly licensed OXP, get the inspiration and creates his own version of it, he can also put a license of his choice on the code.
That is some effort, but if the original and unclear OXP seems worth it...

If it is not worth it then let it rest in peace.
That was the solution I discussed with Cholmondely, if I upload a "remake" adjusted to later Oolite versions and add Killer Wolf as the author and a license as well everybody should be happy. He certainly gave permit for that:

Killer Wolf wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:47 am
i put my ships and station up there for people to use, play w/ and (i hope) appreciate. if they want to incorporate them into their own work, they can. i would assume if anyone wanted to, they would have the courtesy to ask first, as Drew did. if someone wants to incorporate them and go changing their specs and/or stats w/out asking, as Real Shipyards did, well that's up to them. I ain't happy about it, but neither am i going to get het up about it because the Oolite i run here has my own OXPs on so i'm unaffected.
Scars remind us where we've been. They don't have to dictate where we're going.
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by hiran »

montana05 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:31 am
hiran wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:22 am
We can get around licensing issues somehow.

If someone takes a not clearly licensed OXP, get the inspiration and creates his own version of it, he can also put a license of his choice on the code.
That is some effort, but if the original and unclear OXP seems worth it...

If it is not worth it then let it rest in peace.
That was the solution I discussed with Cholmondely, if I upload a "remake" adjusted to later Oolite versions and add Killer Wolf as the author and a license as well everybody should be happy. He certainly gave permit for that:

Killer Wolf wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:47 am
i put my ships and station up there for people to use, play w/ and (i hope) appreciate. if they want to incorporate them into their own work, they can. i would assume if anyone wanted to, they would have the courtesy to ask first, as Drew did. if someone wants to incorporate them and go changing their specs and/or stats w/out asking, as Real Shipyards did, well that's up to them. I ain't happy about it, but neither am i going to get het up about it because the Oolite i run here has my own OXPs on so i'm unaffected.
Then simply go for it. :-)
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by montana05 »

hiran wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:34 am
Then simply go for it. :-)
That's what I am planing to do. :wink: I always wanted to upload Killer Wolf's OXP's, the problem was the license. Thanks to Cholmondely investigation of the board, there is now a way around that. :)
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by montana05 »

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:19 am
Questions.

Galactic Navy.
Would it be possible to publish this without license on the Expansions Manager on condition that it is only updated by an Override?

Killer Wolf's oxp's.
I think that he gave these a license without giving them a formal license (which he was against). Vide:
Killer Wolf seems to be solved, why we not upload Sothis first ? :wink:

GN I am still uncertain, as much as I remember there was never a post that would permit to use his work. We could upload it to the manager and add a disclaimer to the wiki, maybe add some overrides as requirment. :?:
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by hiran »

montana05 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:07 am
GN I am still uncertain, as much as I remember there was never a post that would permit to use his work. We could upload it to the manager and add a disclaimer to the wiki, maybe add some overrides as requirment. :?:
So again the same question, and this time there is no post or answer from the original author. I would probably not go and simply add it to the expansion manager.

Is it worth recreating this OXP? If not, let it rest in peace.
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by montana05 »

hiran wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:13 am
So again the same question, and this time there is no post or answer from the original author. I would probably not go and simply add it to the expansion manager.

Is it worth recreating this OXP? If not, let it rest in peace.
GN is referenced and used by several other OXP's, so I think a remake would be worth it. Years ago I started to tinker with the original but never changed enough of the code to justify it as new work, more a heavily modified version. :roll:
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by hiran »

montana05 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:26 am
hiran wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:13 am
So again the same question, and this time there is no post or answer from the original author. I would probably not go and simply add it to the expansion manager.

Is it worth recreating this OXP? If not, let it rest in peace.
GN is referenced and used by several other OXP's, so I think a remake would be worth it. Years ago I started to tinker with the original but never changed enough of the code to justify it as new work, more a heavily modified version. :roll:
Well, it still is a marvellous starting point. You would just make sure your hands were everywhere.
I am not sure how much of modification/difference you need to some artefact to call it 'created by you'.
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by Cholmondely »

hiran wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:13 am
montana05 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:07 am
GN I am still uncertain, as much as I remember there was never a post that would permit to use his work. We could upload it to the manager and add a disclaimer to the wiki, maybe add some overrides as requirment. :?:
So again the same question, and this time there is no post or answer from the original author. I would probably not go and simply add it to the expansion manager.

Is it worth recreating this OXP? If not, let it rest in peace.
Have you tried it? Seriously, give it a stab! Cody, Smivs et al eventually decided that they did not like what it did to their Ooniverse, hence their preference for HIMSN... but seriously, very seriously, try it!

Personally I think it is brilliant. Massive navy presences, loyalty bonds, greetings on docking, bizarre markets, peculiar warnings, enlistment in the Navy, news from the Frontier... it rivals Phkb's efforts! What more can I say...

And once you've tried it, let us know what it does to your game. Montana has reset the download link to the original: here - http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Galactic_Navy_OXP

And add in Behemoth from the Expansions Manager (if you don't already have it) as well as the Facelift and the Destroyers from here: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Galact ... _Additions.

Then visit a Naval base! Phkb's GalCop Galactic Registry will tell you where they are and even plot a course for you to get there (you probably need ANA). Dock at the base, and take it from there... (ILS might help: Docking Computers take rather longer, and I'm not sure that the Naval bases accept fast docking).
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by Cholmondely »

hiran wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:36 am
montana05 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:26 am
hiran wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:13 am
So again the same question, and this time there is no post or answer from the original author. I would probably not go and simply add it to the expansion manager.

Is it worth recreating this OXP? If not, let it rest in peace.
GN is referenced and used by several other OXP's, so I think a remake would be worth it. Years ago I started to tinker with the original but never changed enough of the code to justify it as new work, more a heavily modified version. :roll:
Well, it still is a marvellous starting point. You would just make sure your hands were everywhere.
I am not sure how much of modification/difference you need to some artefact to call it 'created by you'.
Ahah! Montana doesn't. Of the zillions of other people's oxp's he's worked on, only one or two were uploaded and ascribed to him, and I'm convinced it was a mistake - the hours he keeps are conducive to such things. And for those one or two, if you read what he wrote, he is perfectly clear that he did not write them. The others he wrote himself (the fixes and his resource pack).

And thank heavens he is doing this. He has rescued a large number of .oxp's and made it so much easier for other people (such as myself) to enjoy them.
Last edited by Cholmondely on Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: Licensing OXPs

Post by Cody »

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:47 am
Cody, Smivs et al eventually decided that they did not like what it did to their Ooniverse, hence their preference for HIMSN...
Eventually? I hated it from day one - far too pervasive! [rant deleted] Hence why some of us decided to make HIMSN.
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