Oolite Engine Function Question.

[Commander McLane]

The Galaxies wormholes never collapsed, the new expanding human domains of the Federation and Empire simply removed the hyperdrive chords from all starships in their space and band all knowledge of the Galactic Hyperdrive. The systems are still there, current ships are unable to tune their sensors to find them.

Problem here: The wormhole system collapsed before Feds and Imperials took over the pitiful remains of GalCop. Their collapse is actually a major contributing factor in GalCop's downfall.

[Disembodied]

My vote for the engine system is a mixed ion/plasma systems because they need very little fuel to produce quite effective thrust and change colour depending on the type of fuel used. [Genuine Science Fact!]

The problem with any sort of reaction drive is that sticking with Newton means sticking with "equal and opposite". Ion drives are very efficient, but the levels of thrust they produce are tiny. They can produce effective (i.e. present-day effective) speeds using very small amounts of fuel, but only by producing very low levels of acceleration over a very long time. If you want to move a multi-ton object like a Cobra III from stationary to 35% of C in a few seconds, using Newtonian physics, you're going to have to push an incredible amount of stuff out the back, at incredible speeds. And if you do that (unless we have handwaving, get-out-of-Newton-free stuff like "inertial dampeners"), the passengers get turned into a molecular film on the back wall of the cabin.

[_ds_]

I'm reminded of two things:

• how the Heisenberg compensator works (“very well”);
• narrativium.

[Captain Hesperus]

I'm reminded of two things:

• narrativium.

And that has several isotopes, Handwavium, Glossolalium and Merda Taurorum.

Captain Hesperus

[KZ9999]

The Galaxies wormholes never collapsed, the new expanding human domains of the Federation and Empire simply removed the hyperdrive chords from all starships in their space and band all knowledge of the Galactic Hyperdrive. The systems are still there, current ships are unable to tune their sensors to find them.

Problem here: The wormhole system collapsed before Feds and Imperials took over the pitiful remains of GalCop. Their collapse is actually a major contributing factor in GalCop's downfall.

Mayhap the Thargoids in one last desperate attempt to stop the GCW from winning the war, that they used the ultimate weapon. By collapsing a series of neutron stars in to black hole, the titanic shift of the fabric of space altering all the octave and chord structure of the universe.

With the vast network of independent ships unable to tune in to the new music of the stars, commerce fell apart. Since the GCW at it's heart a decentralised trading network, it was unable to cope with it. The centralised governments of the Federation and Empire weathered the crisis much better and were able to expand while the GCW floundered.

What about the worlds that were non-human pre crisis, and human post crisis. Simply, when a disaster strikes, only the most aggressive and adaptable survive, and humans are nothing if not both. No doubt, the races that did survive but fell under the heal of the Feds and Imperials, were relocated to enclaves or worse.

As for the Thargoids? Well they survived just fine, considering the massive losses they suffered before the 'shift.' Using their massed minds and tightly integrated society they were able to recover and reclaim their lost worlds in decades. At the time of First Encounters, they are mounting their first expeditions to human space to see what has become of their former foes.

The problem with any sort of reaction drive is that sticking with Newton means sticking with "equal and opposite"..... And if you do that (unless we have handwaving, get-out-of-Newton-free stuff like "inertial dampeners"), the passengers get turned into a molecular film on the back wall of the cabin.

Maybe manufactured gravity could come to the rescue again. The ship's torus drive makes every thing within it's field a single mass (as far as the universe is concered.) As such, the thrust applied to one part is equally effect all object within that 'mass bubble' even if it is a discreet item, like the crew. There is no issue of body squish, because the universe considers that the thrust is applied equally to matter within the field. Since all matter in the field is travelling at the same speed and acceleration at the same time, Newton remains happy.

[Yes it's Handwavium, but at least its artfully balanced Hanwavium.]

Ion drives are very efficient, but the levels of thrust they produce are tiny. They can produce effective (i.e. present-day effective) speeds using very small amounts of fuel, but only by producing very low levels of acceleration over a very long time. If you want to move a multi-ton object like a Cobra III from stationary to 35% of C in a few seconds, using Newtonian physics, you're going to have to push an incredible amount of stuff out the back, at incredible speeds.

Well its massed Ion drives for steering, and a fusion plasma matrix drive for speed. Then again it could be a Atomic Torch Drive and this is why ships cant land, because they would nuke the planet's environment very quickly.

Anyone want to know the reality of space travel visit Atomic Rockets site at: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.html

I see your an impossibility drive and raise you a carriage being pulled by a dozen geese.

[Disembodied]

Well its massed Ion drives for steering, and a fusion plasma matrix drive for speed. Then again it could be a Atomic Torch Drive and this is why ships cant land, because they would nuke the planet's environment very quickly.

There's still the problem, with any kind of reaction drive, of using fuel to accelerate the ship. If you're only going to use tiny amounts of fuel – so tiny as to be negligible, so that it's not worthwhile even having a fuel gauge to measure how much in-system manoeuvering you have left – then the ships' acceleration will be tiny too.

Handwavium does get tricky. I've been through the Atomic Rockets site: check out what it says regarding "Jon's Law" and 'Burnside's Advice". My own personal preference is for a reactionless drive (it fits the behaviour of ships in the Ooniverse) but which grinds to a halt in the presence of large masses (thus preventing the use of planet-cracking missiles). If you imagine these drives as something like propellers on an ocean-going ship, they're great for zooming around the sea. But if planets are like islands, surrounded by shelving coastlines underwater (representing their gravity wells), then the propeller ceases to be any use when the bottom of the ship grounds on the rising seabed.

Alternatively, you can have extremely mild reaction thrusters (thus preventing people using engines as weapons, and also fitting in with the Ooniverse's "no fuel use for in-system navigation"), with your gravity-bubble brake providing the non-Newtonian ability to come to rest without the use of retros. But extremely mild thrust means extremely low acceleration, unless you also fiddle with the mass of the ship being pushed.

Perhaps the torus drive's "mass bubble" finagles the deal, reducing the mass of the ship to something like that of a few atoms? That way, when you push tiny amounts of mass out the back at very high speeds, the ship accelerates very rapidly. This could also explain why the ships are (to all intents and purposes) unaffected by gravity ...

[Commander McLane]

I only can suggest that you study Selezen's excellent work again and carefully. Okay, it can be fun to come up with a different, contradicting theory to his. But it doesn't really make things easier, as far as getting a consistent backstory is concerned.

The Galaxies wormholes never collapsed, the new expanding human domains of the Federation and Empire simply removed the hyperdrive chords from all starships in their space and band all knowledge of the Galactic Hyperdrive. The systems are still there, current ships are unable to tune their sensors to find them.

Problem here: The wormhole system collapsed before Feds and Imperials took over the pitiful remains of GalCop. Their collapse is actually a major contributing factor in GalCop's downfall.

Mayhap the Thargoids in one last desperate attempt to stop the GCW from winning the war, that they used the ultimate weapon.

No, it was the Thargoids who were winning the war, and GalCop was losing the war. And the first wormhole collapsed 13 years after the Thargoids were practically eradicated. Follow the timeline:

3149 - GalCop suffers massive losses in Thargoid attacks. Negotiations are opened with the Galactic Federation and the Duval Empire for aid in the wars. The Federation and Empire are having increasing trouble with Thargoid incursions, but not with full-scale war zones such as GalCop has seen.

3150 - the Federation agree to aid GalCop and offer technology exchanges as a means to achieve the defeat of the Thargoids. Later the same year, the Empire extends a similar offer to the Federation deal. GalCop accept.

3151 - Thargoids defeated, presumed eradicated. Bioweapons are thought to have been used.

3162 - GalCop’s economy begins to collapse.

3164 - During this year, the stable wormhole connecting Galaxy 1 to Galaxy 2 and thence to the rest of the seven Galaxies collapses. It is thought highly likely that the collapsing was engineered. Galaxy 1 stands alone. GalCop is reduced from over 2040 worlds to less than 200. GalCop is a shadow of its former self and no longer a threat to either Federation or Empire. The Exile remains in force.

3165 - It is discovered that the alien races once indigenous to the Far Colonies region of space have gone. Those worlds that had human colony areas become human worlds as the colonies spread out. Those that did not now stand abandoned. It is surmised that they departed for Galaxy 2, somehow managing to find a method of travelling there. Humanity stands alone once more.

With the vast network of independent ships unable to tune in to the new music of the stars, commerce fell apart. Since the GCW at it's heart a decentralised trading network, it was unable to cope with it.

Note that the collapse of GalCop's economy starts three years before the first wormhole collapses. There is some speculation as to the reasons of the economic collapse. The most widely accepted theory as of now is that during the last years of the Thargoid Wars more and more resources were allocated to the navy, and production of other commodities decreased heavily. This doesn't yet explain why the economic collapse came only eleven years after the end of the Thargoid Wars. Probably the navy didn't reduce its demands after 3151, and the resources given to it became more and more unproductive, until at some point the economy couldn't bear anymore? There is certainly some more historic-economic research needed here.

The centralised governments of the Federation and Empire weathered the crisis much better and were able to expand while the GCW floundered.

What crisis? Federation and Empire were in no crisis. They never ever had used the wormholes and expanded beyond Chart One. So why should their collapse affect them? Of course they indirectly profited from the economic and political collapse of GalCop.

What about the worlds that were non-human pre crisis, and human post crisis. Simply, when a disaster strikes, only the most aggressive and adaptable survive, and humans are nothing if not both. No doubt, the races that did survive but fell under the heal of the Feds and Imperials, were relocated to enclaves or worse.

It's in the timeline as well:

3164 - During this year, the stable wormhole connecting Galaxy 1 to Galaxy 2 and thence to the rest of the seven Galaxies collapses. It is thought highly likely that the collapsing was engineered. Galaxy 1 stands alone. GalCop is reduced from over 2040 worlds to less than 200. GalCop is a shadow of its former self and no longer a threat to either Federation or Empire. The Exile remains in force.

3165 - It is discovered that the alien races once indigenous to the Far Colonies region of space have gone. Those worlds that had human colony areas become human worlds as the colonies spread out. Those that did not now stand abandoned. It is surmised that they departed for Galaxy 2, somehow managing to find a method of travelling there. Humanity stands alone once more.

Selezen himself suggests that the collapse of the wormhole was engineered by the non-human races, in order to cover their retreat from Chart One, and make it impossible to follow them. If it's so, there is no need to assume that they fell victim to genocides. Although it may be speculated that they left Chart One precisely in order to avoid eventually falling victim, given the aggressive nature of the remaining powers.

[Captain Hesperus]

ISTR from somewhere (maybe Selezen can correct or support this) that The Federation was extremely xenophobic and had an unofficial policy of eradicating indigenous species that showed signs of civilisation on newly discovered worlds. The Duvalian Empire was slightly less extreme, tending to enslave these new races and using them for their strengths. It was only the Alliance that actually had an inclusive attitude. When GalCop started to collapse, there's the likelihood that Federal and Imperial taskforces moved in to annex regions of GalCop territory, safe in the knowledge that GalCop dare not (or indeed, could not) intervene. These is a chance that genocides occured during this period.

Captain Hesperus

[KZ9999]

I only can suggest that you study Selezen's excellent work again and carefully. Okay, it can be fun to come up with a different, contradicting theory to his. But it doesn't really make things easier, as far as getting a consistent backstory is concerned.

As I said in my earlier posts. I'm not putting any of this stuff in to the manual. I am focusing purely on providing an introduction to the game mechanics and how to last longer than 5 minutes in the game. I will include links to the wiki material and the excellent fiction and back story work created by others. I am not trying to re-write the future history as it currently exists. All I was trying to to was to provided an alternatives to the concepts as a way to promote the discussion. If that didn't come across in the posts, I apologise.

Anyhow who's says that the time line of Elite-Frontiers universe, is the same as the Oolite universe's timeline. Consider this point, both Elite and Oolite are meant to start at the same point in the space time reality matrix. Yet there are several differences between in technology between the two reality threads. Perhaps the time lines diverged at some point in the pre interstellar humanity past, and has resulted in a similar but divergant realities. Maybe in the Thargoid/GCW war is more a border dispute cool-war instead of the outright white hot war of the Elite timeline. Maybe Earth is under a self-imposed isolation for some reason and so isn't part of the GCW.

I could go on, but that's an off thread discussion. Returning to the matter at hand.

In regards to the 'mass bubble', which I really should be calling 'a single mass point in 4d-space.' You are correct Disembodied about the reduced mass effect. The single point effect of the Torus Drive does not stop the flow of gravitons, but alters their effect. The field acts a insulating effect, slowing the flow of the gravitons thereby reducing the apparent mass of the ship and it's impact in the fabric in space. With the mass reduced from tons to a few kilos, there wouldn't be the need for big engines to provide enough thrust to overcome the breaking effect of the 'bubble.' Another effect of the reduced 'density' is that ambient effect of other gravity masses are reduced, hence no tidal effect of stellar bodies and even the space stations.

I am aware the the ship's physical volume would still provide a breaking effect as it force itself through the matter that composes deep space. This is why most ship in Oolite have a 'aerodynamic' look to them, to reduce drag.

So the in review....
* the Torus drive generates a field that convert all masses within it's sphere in to a single point mass in 4d-space.
* All forces on matter within that sphere are applied equally so to prevent Newtonian issues.
* The sphere has an interference effect that reduces the flow of gravitons though the sphere resulting in the reduction of the ship's mass to kilos.
* This same interference reduces the attravtive effects of other matter in space, which in pratical terms reduced the issues of gravity wells.
* The automatic breaking effect of the drive is due to the field disrupting the natural flow of gravity and thereby becoming meshed in the fabric of space..
* With the reduced mass, only moderate sized drives are required for acceleration.
* The field can not overcome the natural drag effect of a ship moving though space so the ships must be of a streamlined designed to reduced this effect.

All this discussion about the technology has prompted some interesting ideas fiction wise. I think I'll be dipping in to my story idea files and doing some re-writing over the next few weeks.

[Commander McLane]

Anyhow who's says that the time line of Elite-Frontiers universe, is the same as the Oolite universe's timeline. Consider this point, both Elite and Oolite are meant to start at the same point in the space time reality matrix. Yet there are several differences between in technology between the two reality threads.

Actually, no. Elite is supposed to start 3125, Oolite is supposed to start 3141 (I think; can somebody confirm? Selezen?). Therefore certain technical advancements in Oolite over Elite can be easily justified, e.g. the fact that Coriolis stations are no longer the most common sight around planets, but also things like witchfuel injection technology etc.

[Captain Hesperus]

Actually, no. Elite is supposed to start 3125, Oolite is supposed to start 3141 (I think; can somebody confirm? Selezen?). Therefore certain technical advancements in Oolite over Elite can be easily justified, e.g. the fact that Coriolis stations are no longer the most common sight around planets, but also things like witchfuel injection technology etc.

The collapse of GalCop also explains why the OXP ships aren't represented in Frontier: Elite II and First Encounters. When the economic power of GalCop disintegrated, companies like Seldar Shipyards, Benulobiweed Inc, Murgh Shipyards and so forth went bankrupt, and without the financial support that GalCop and the other seven galaxies could provide they went to the wall in short order.

Sorry guys, better start selling your company shares while they're still worth something....

Captain Hesperus

[Selezen]

3141-2 is the start of OOlite.

My fiction timeline (at least some of it) states that the remnant of GalCop's ruling body co-operate with the non-human races to collapse the wormhole connecting G1 to G2 after the non-human races depart to G2 - where they go from there is anyone's business.

The Empire are canonically a xenophobic race as highlighted in Frontier's gazetteer. They eradicated a species on one of Achenar's planets simply because it wasn't human.

The Federation are (questionable canonicity) just as bad given thier standpoint in some of the Frontier and FFE stories that came with the game. My fictional premise for the creation of the Far Colonies in the first place was a secession of Federal member states to protect a non-humanoid race that lived in that area (the Disan race, to be precise).

Canonical: the Thargoid War was ended when INRA infected the Thargoid with a mycoid virus that attacked and destroyed thier organically based technology, effectively breaking thier hyperdrives and stranding them in whichever part of space they happened to be in at the time. History does not state whether or not the pockets of Thargoid ships were mopped up, but the Thargoids were not seen again for about a hundred years (presumably how long it took for the mycoid virus to die off or be cured).

[KZ9999]

The Empire are canonically a xenophobic race as highlighted in Frontier's gazetteer. They eradicated a species on one of Achenar's planets simply because it wasn't human.

The Federation are (questionable canonicity) just as bad given thier standpoint in some of the Frontier and FFE stories that came with the game. My fictional premise for the creation of the Far Colonies in the first place was a secession of Federal member states to protect a non-humanoid race that lived in that area (the Disan race, to be precise).

Your explanation makes a lot of sense. The Federation would follow the method that was practised by the English colonials in Australia, New Zealand and South Pacific. While the native races were not actively exterminated, with the the exception of the Tasmanian Aboriginals, their cultures were stifled by various methods. Officially this was to preserve the culture, but actually it kills it. If the culture has no room to grow and change, it dies and so does the race created it.

One could see that some groups of human colonials realising that the native cultural has much to contribute and change their own society to embrace it. If embracing it means leaving from a parent political body, so be it. It has happened in various forms through out the South Pacific, although we all are still in throws of dealing with the cultural shifts introduced.

[wackyman465]

I don't understand....

[KZ9999]

Ok, I didn't include enough info in my last post.

To use my own country of New Zealand as an example of the methods.

When English colonials came to NZ they set in place a legal document to recognise the inalienable rights of the native population of Maaori. The Treaty Of Waitangi (1840) was both a document formalising the creation of New Zealand as a territory of the British Empire, and recognition of the Maaori as full citizens with their own independent rights.

What happen is though the Maaori culture was meant to be equal to the English one, it was a second class. Only English could be spoken in spoken in schools, legal, or governmental environments. While there was no active discouragement of the Maaori to seek higher education or government positions, there was no active encouragement either. Maaori society functions with a different system of politics and perspectives to the English model, yet almost all the legislation failed to take this into account. Even their arts were to an extent codify in a standardised format to 'preserve it,' and thereby almost destroying a varied and responsive style. From as early as the 1880's were foreign observer starting to quote the Maaori as a dying race. It was only in the 1960&70's when the Maaori Renaissance happen did things start to change. 40 odd years on, New Zealand society as a whole is still changing.

I could go on but it out side the scope of the thread. I've only written the most cursorily outline of the story. If anyone wanted to understand the effects of the process of colonisation on a native culture, The Penguin History Of New Zealand by Michel King, Penguin Books, ISBN 0143018671 is a great place to start.