RFC: Fancy classics

[Ark]

Still need a consensus about using the megaships as behemoths - or do I modify the existing behemoths or what?

You know my opinion about that
"keep new things in a deferent oxp than the old stuff"
As long as you do not change something exept from the models a unified neolite galactive navy- behemoth oxp sounds great!!

[Eric Walch]

[Still need a consensus about using the megaships as behemoths - or do I modify the existing behemoths or what?

Just make them, but don't overwrite existing behemoth ships. Give them an unique shipkey and you avoid any conflict with existing oxp's that depend on the original.

[Ark]

[Still need a consensus about using the megaships as behemoths - or do I modify the existing behemoths or what?

Just make them, but don't overwrite existing behemoth ships. Give them an unique shipkey and you avoid any conflict with existing oxp's that depend on the original.

Correct me if i am wrong Eric but in that way we will have a mixed population of behemoths in the game original and neolite ones. Am i right ?

[Eric Walch]

Correct me if i am wrong Eric but in that way we will have a mixed population of behemoths in the game original and neolite ones. Am i right ?

No, only when the player likes to add both oxp's (or is forced to add both because one other depends on the original.)

Simon:
With the Boa MK I noticed you completely changed the view point of the boa, compared to the original, specially at the back. In the original version there was 10 meter height difference between view point and laser exit. Both front and aft. In your model you have 10 meter difference in the front, but 30 meters height difference at the back. This makes combat difficult as you now have different aiming point for back and front. When using the reticule sensitive you must even aim so far off-target that the reticule turns green again to let it hit. By itself is off-target no problem, but al four lasers should have the same adjustment.

[Ark]

But the only oxp that depends on behemoth is the Galactive Navy (an I right?) and SimonB wants to unified them.

[Simon B]

For navy/behemoth I'm making sure there will be no conflicts with other oxps like some people have experienced with the core set.

This is an important issue.

What is happening is this: some of the core neolite ships have multiple parts.
If an oxp has a like_ship entry which supplies it's own model, then the subentities for the neolite model will also appear.

So if you have like_ship="shuttle"; and supply your own model="my-shuttle.dat"; then your model will appear with the neolite shuttle wings.

The only way I can prevent this is to forgo multi-part ships in the core set.
The affected ships are:

Fer de Lance
Sidewinder
Boa
Shuttle

In most cases the fix would involve greatly simplifying the current model. So - fer-de-lance would lose it's engine pods in favor of a built-in, sidewinder engines would end up hexagonal, as would the cockpit, I'd have to rebuild the boa monohull, and the shuttle would lose it's wings.

The alternative is to ask the oxp maintainers to make allowances in the interim, or create their own neolite edition.

In the most part, this would involve creating a patch oxp replacing the model and skin. Out of those, the sidewinder is the most frequent culprit. I can provide a blank and a bare-metal skin if it will help.

[Ark]

There is a bug in the new versions shipdata plist the correct names of the pngs are
sidewinder-engine-neolite-default.png
sidewinder-engine-neolite-effectsmap.png

"sidewinder-engines" =
{
ai_type = "nullAI.plist";
cargo_type = "CARGO_NOT_CARGO";
density = 5;
forward_weapon_type = "WEAPON_NONE";
model = "neosidewinder-engines.dat";
name = "Sidewinder Engines";
roles = "sidewinder-engines";
shaders =
{
"sidewinder-engines-default.png" =
{
"vertex_shader" = "neolite-std.vs";
"fragment_shader" = "neolite-std.fs";
textures =
(
"sidewinder-engines-neolite-default.png",
"sidewinder-engines-neolite-effectsmap.png",
"null-neolite-normalmap.png"
);
uniforms =
{
uColourMap = { type = texture; value = 0; };
uFXMap = { type = texture; value = 1; };
uNormalMap = { type = texture; value = 2; };
SpecularRGB = { type = vector; value = "1.0 0.7 0.5 1.0";};
uTime = "universalTime";
uEngineLevel = "speedFactor";
uHullHeatLevel= "hullHeatLevel";
};
};
};
thrust = 1;
};
"sidewinder" =
{
aft_eject_position = "0.0 7.5 -18.0";
ai_type = "pirateAI.plist";
auto_ai = yes;
cargo_type = "CARGO_NOT_CARGO";
energy_recharge_rate = 2;
exhaust = ("5.5 0.8 -13.6 2.0 4.0 10.0", "-5.5 0.8 -13.6 2.0 4.0 10.0");
forward_weapon_type = "WEAPON_PULSE_LASER";
frangible = false;
frangible = no;
max_energy = 240;
max_flight_pitch = 1.6;
max_flight_roll = 2.8;
max_flight_speed = 370;
missile_launch_position = "0.0 -2.0 3.0";
missiles = 0;
model = "neosidewinder-main.dat";
name = "Sidewinder Scout Ship";
roles = "pirate hunter oolite-sidewinder";
shaders =
{
"sidewinder-neolite-default.png" =
{
"vertex_shader" = "neolite-std.vs";
"fragment_shader" = "neolite-std.fs";
textures =
(
"sidewinder-neolite-default.png",
"sidewinder-neolite-effectsmap.png",
"null-neolite-normalmap.png"
);
uniforms =
{
uColourMap = { type = texture; value = 0; };
uFXMap = { type = texture; value = 1; };
uNormalMap = { type = texture; value = 2; };
SpecularRGB = { type = vector; value = "1.0 0.7 0.5 1.0";};
uTime = "universalTime";
uEngineLevel = "speedFactor";
uHullHeatLevel= "hullHeatLevel";
};
};
};

[Ark]

And here is the Your Adhere!! Neolite patch.
http://www.box.net/shared/yc3rhky0ci

It completely replaces the sidewinder defenders of the constores with the neolite variants. Thank you SimonB!!!
It does not have a dependency with neolite core.
I have put it here for testing purposes

[Simon B]

Ark - well spotted! That's more subtle than you think.

This is from the model:

Code: Select all

// output from Obj2DatTex.py Wavefront text file conversion script
// (c) 2005 By Giles Williams
// 
// original file: "neosidewinder-engines.obj"
// 
// model size: 18.295 x 8.829 x 25.474
// 
[b]// textures used: ['sidewinder-engine-neolite-default.png'][/b]
// 

This is the textures folder:

Code: Select all

simon@indigo-prime:~$ cd .Oolite/AddOns/neolite.oxp/Textures/
simon@indigo-prime:Textures$ ls sidewinder*
sidewinder-engine-neolite-default.png     sidewinder-neolite-default.png
sidewinder-engine-neolite-effectsmap.png  sidewinder-neolite-effectsmap.png

So - indeed - the correct shaders should be:

Code: Select all

		model = "neosidewinder-engines.dat";
		name = "Sidewinder Engines";
		roles = "sidewinder-engines";
		shaders =
		{
			"sidewinder-engine-neolite-default.png" =
			{
				"vertex_shader" = "neolite-std.vs";
				"fragment_shader" = "neolite-std.fs";
				textures =
				(
					"sidewinder-engine-neolite-default.png",
					"sidewinder-engine-neolite-effectsmap.png",
					"null-neolite-normalmap.png"
				);

The layout of the shaders is because I was originally following Ahruman's suggestion to use a different, high-res' texture for people without shaders. Thus, the skin used by the model was to be different to the skin used by the shader.

Unfortunately that produced really big packages, and, to take full advantage of it, required drawing two skins for each model.

The first png in the shaders has to be the one that the model uses.
The others have to be the ones in the textures directory.
They have to be in order, diffuse, effects, normal.

It's subtle because the failure in the shaders just means the model uses the correct skin anyway - just without the effects-map. The sidewinder does not have much by way of effects anyway.

Not all ships have their own effects or normal map. Some share. Some use a null-map.

And here is the Your Adhere!! Neolite patch.

Cool!

FWIW: the sidewinder is also a developer resource. The two dat files contain four models ... they are fully skinned, so all you have to do to make your own unique ship is mix and match with the other models.

Other multi-part ships have similar mix-n-match structures.
You want a sidewinder with spikes?

With the Boa MK I noticed you completely changed the view point of the boa, compared to the original, specially at the back. In the original version there was 10 meter height difference between view point and laser exit. Both front and aft. In your model you have 10 meter difference in the front, but 30 meters height difference at the back. This makes combat difficult as you now have different aiming point for back and front. When using the reticule sensitive you must even aim so far off-target that the reticule turns green again to let it hit. By itself is off-target no problem, but al four lasers should have the same adjustment.

Curious - I changed the aft viewpoint because of complaints about the old one. I didn't change the laser fireing point. On my system, the target point is always middle of the screen no matter what and the whole ship rotates about it.

I'll take a closer look. Just move the point up 20m in y and see if that helps.

It's a big ship and it makes sense to put the cameras near the guns.
Note - the from fire position is supposed to be by the nose of the skiff. IIRC.

[Eric Walch]

Curious - I changed the aft viewpoint because of complaints about the old one. I didn't change the laser fireing point. On my system, the target point is always middle of the screen no matter what and the whole ship rotates about it.

I'll take a closer look. Just move the point up 20m in y and see if that helps.

I listed here the original data, your data and the ones I like better:

Boa-mk original,

Code: Select all

		view_position_forward = "0.0 12.5 19.4375";
		weapon_position_forward = "0.0 1.8 47.5";
		y-diff = 10.7

		view_position_aft = "0.0 22.875 -47.375";
		weapon_position_aft = "0.0 8.625 -54.125";
		y-dff = 14.25

Boa mk neolite

Code: Select all

		view_position_forward = "0.0 12.0 16.0";
		weapon_position_forward = "0.0 0.0 50.0";
		y-dif = 12.0

		view_position_aft = "0.0 16.0 -41.0";
		weapon_position_aft = "0.0 -14.6 -40.0";
		y-diff = 30.6

Boa mk neolite (my preferred changes)

Code: Select all

		"view_position_forward" = "0.0 8.0 50.0";
		"weapon_position_forward" = "0.0 0.0 50.0";
		y-diff = 8.0

		"view_position_aft" = "0.0 14.0 -41.0";
		"weapon_position_aft" = "0.0 5.4 -40.0";
		y-diff = 8.6

As you see, you moved the back laser from +8.6 to -14.6, that more than 20 meter lower. And it is correct that the reticule does not change position, but when view point and laser point differ you get a parallax. Just like a real rifle when you look through the cross-hairs under an angle you must also have the target a bit out of the centre to hit it straight on. The closer you come to the target, the larger the difference becomes. After some time you learn your rifle and know how far you must be off target for each distance to make a hit, but when both front and aft act the same on this, it makes it a lot easier.

[Simon B]

Tho "original" data will be from the classic plist. I don't use 4dp accuracy for viewpoints.

[Simon B]

.. in response to the request for a more transportery transporter.

[Wolfwood]

Lovely "transportery Transporter", I must say!

[Diziet Sma]

Agreed! nice work Simon!

One thought though, about 'transportery'... having seen the worn paint and battle-scarred look you've done on some viper variants, it occurs to me that a similar 'hard-used' look would go well on a Transporter.

[Simon B]

Updates: I've been offline for much of the week, but I've been finding sometime for Oolite between writing a literature review... <sigh>

Anyway - The transporter is not yet in the core ships. I have tested out a new skin for the dodo and iso stations - same source as the coriolis one who still refuses to be named. Apparently the acclaim was too much :)

Same person has sent me a grunged transporter skin the same day I uploaded the new transporter model - nice timing: I'm scared to open my email.

Those of you urging plist changes to the core ships have got their wish.

But the hot news is: I have finished the neolite-wolfies oxp. I'll be uploading the release version (only tweaks needed pics to follow) soon.

That oxp replaces Wolfwood's Varients and includes:

Cobra Rapier
Cobra Courier
Drake mk1 and 2
Wolf mk1

Wolf also had a comprehensive selection of huds not implimented - so I just went ahead and implimented them all - what the hey right? See what you think?

I was thinking along these lines as replacement for the classic large hud.

But first the wings profiles so you can get a good look.