Oolite Bulletins

Hi @all

It`s done: Realistic Shipyards V3.01 - the, I hope, final edition.

Special thanks to all who helped me create it with their feedback, praise, criticism, advice, comments and especially Selezen: For telling me when to stop. I wouldn`t have on my own.

Many, many new features and stuff. Read & download here:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Realistic_Shipyards

Impressive space battles. A new power balance due to handcrafted reworked roles. Now you live (and die) in the shadows of much greater entities than yourself ... to which you might one day belong yourself. Should be compatible with other oxps as no "special" roles have been changed - and what you can have, also can they.

And no more stderr text created

Please note the following:

1. I will leave this thread as a quasi-sticky so as not to flood the forum with my oxp themes as long as someone posts. That`s why I will change the first posting in case of fundamental announcements, as this is one.

2. I think this is the final version of the Realistic Shipyards, bugfixes and updates to contributions of third parties (missions) nonwithstanding.

3. I will react to bug reports if I am told what exactly happened, why it might have to do with my oxp and that it has consequences in-game. In such a case I will try to repair the problem ASAP.

4. I will not react to discussions of principle as such. This oxp is done. Some will like it, some not. I wish both parties fun with Oolite in their own way & taste. But I want to play the game now including what I have created/assembled myself and not spend my time debating in forums as I used to do for the last three weeks.

Answers will, quite obviously, appear at the end of this thread.

Have fun

L

Sorry that the first thing I have to say here is a critisism.

Lestradae wrote:

* The standard equipment a ship is bought with isn`t always awarded by the game as it should. This is not a Realistic Shipyards - specific bug, it seems to be a problem of the core game.

I am pretty sure that this is a Realistic Shipyards-bug.

The shipyard.plist-documentation in the wiki explains how the optional_equipment-array and the standard_equipment-array work.

standard_equipment will be present in each and every ship of this type that is for sale anywhere. That's precisely the meaning of "standard". The standard equipment is not even noted on the shipyard-screen. You see it only if you have bought the ship. Therefore on the shipyard it says "Standard customer model." It's standard. So if you choose to put each and every item of equipment in the standard_equipment-array, then the "Standard customer model" will come with each and every piece of equipment pre-installed. The game-engine will not adjust the ship-price accordingly. All standard equipment comes free with the ship! And no need to buy anything anymore on the equipment-screen.

optional_equipment, however, is optional. This is the list Oolite chooses from, in order to give some extra equipment to the ship in the shipyard, above the standard. This is the equipment that is mentioned in the shipyard descriptions, like "plus Fuel Scoops. Forward weapon upgraded to military laser". The game-engine adds the prices of these items of equipment to the final price of the ship. Which of the items in the optional_equipment-array is chosen, depends on random. So in the same shipyard there may be some ships without any optional equipment, some have an upgraded laser, some have a Fuel Scoop or an Extra Energy Unit, some have both, and so on. The chance of having optional equipment installed is governed by the chance-key, which also governs the overall availability of the ship.

It is very clear from this, that it makes no sense at all to have the same equipment-item in both the standard_equipment and the optional_equipment-array! You buy a ship that is pre-equipped with a Fuel Scoop (standard, and for free), and then you get randomly another Fuel Scoop on top of that (optional, and with a cost). Not only does this make no sense, it is a bug. A bug, scripted by the negligent (or ignorant) author of the shipyard.plist. Oolite is not the least little bit to blame for it!

Now I open the shipyard.plist of Realistic_Shipyards.oxp (1.07, I haven't yet downloaded the new one). I just look at the very first entry, Condor-player. Here it is: I have marked all lines that are present in both the standard_equipment and the optional_equipment-arrays with a "!*!*!*". Each of these doublettes is a bug in your OXP! That makes eight bugs in the very first ship alone.

Condor-player is already an example of the worst case, because its chance is 1. This means that each and every Condor for sale with have all optional equipment items (and - not to forget - all standard items). So each and every Condor for sale has two Fuel Scoops, two Docking Computers, two Scanner Enhancements, two Multi Targetting Systems, two Target Memory Expansions, two Advanced Space Compasses, two Shield Boosters, and two Heat Shields (each time one of them - the standard one - for free, and the other for a price)! Of course it can only hold one of the respective items, not two. So these bugs will result in unexpected behaviour.

I'm very sorry that this is again a "blunt" criticism. But I do think that the explanation in the wiki is so clear that an idiot would understand it, and not make the mistakes that you have spread all over your OXP. And even if it is actually not your mistakes and bugs, but of those people whose shipyard.plists you probably just copied, it would have been your job as publisher of this OXP to eliminate these bugs.

And don't blame Oolite (the "core game") for your sloppy scripting.

Hi!

You see, there are constructive parts of your criticism. They are most welcome, I will look into the matter and change things right away.

Then there is ...

But I do think that the explanation in the wiki is so clear that an idiot would understand it ... And don't blame Oolite (the "core game") for your sloppy scripting.

... this. You know, if you`d just manage to leave this kind of comment, all would be very well.

Perhaps the passion for destruction isn`t always a creative passion?

Hm, I know you a bit in the meantime and nevertheless thanks for spotting this!

Another evening spent bug-hunting *grumbel*

L

@Commander McLane: Grmblfjx.

Just repairing the mistake you showed me.

You will never believe how many people you indirectly termed as idiots with your remark

But don`t worry, I`m not going to tell you.

This mistake is actually VERY common ... wouldn`t have believed this myself.

Looks good! I will install the new version tonight! I

... You are awesome, Lestradea. If you look up awesome in the dictionary, there is a picture of you. Now, to clean out my addons folder.


Don't panic: FSOneblin


P.S. If you need money, you could sue websters for not asking you if it is ok to put your picture in the dictionary.

EDIT: Could you make the shipyard station a little less flashy? It makes my computer lag so much that my ship goes, then stops, then goes, then stops.

Lestradae, you are the third highest earner of kudos on the board, with only Ahruman and The Giles besting you.

This is an awesome OXP!

However (oh, here he goes), I can see one problem with the wrapping up of various OXPs into the Ultimate Edition, and that is Version Control. Now, instead of just updating the wiki with new versions of OXPs, authors will have to make sure that you are kept up to date too. Alternatively, you will be required to forever check the boards or the wiki for updates and stuff. Have you thought about how to manage that?

In terms to the sharing policy under the CC - The Imperial Courier version 2 is intended to REPLACE the Version 1 OXP, simply because the version 1 pack was experimental and buggy. I'd rather it was NOT included in any other OXPs. Consider this a product recall since you could have someone's eye out with it. Those who want it for themselves can download it separately, but it should be quietly forgotten... please...?

Also, the Dreams01Beta pack (if it's the beta that contains Adder, Asp, Cobra3, FerDeLance, Krait, Moray, Python, Sidewinder and Viper) is my work and should be credited as such. Given that a lot of feedback was gained during the process, I would like "The Oolite Community" to be credited too. It's also (as the title says) a Beta and therefore buggy and likely incomplete, and shouldn't really be incorporated into anything else yet. (yes, believe it or not, work still proceeds - albeit slowly)...

Hi!

Lestradae, you are the third highest earner of kudos on the board, with only Ahruman and The Giles besting you.

This is an awesome OXP!

Thanks very much

However (oh, here he goes), I can see one problem with the wrapping up of various OXPs into the Ultimate Edition, and that is Version Control. Now, instead of just updating the wiki with new versions of OXPs, authors will have to make sure that you are kept up to date too. Alternatively, you will be required to forever check the boards or the wiki for updates and stuff. Have you thought about how to manage that?

Yes I have. First of all, I took OXPs which have been made, uploaded, and basically left unchanged from then on. I did not merge OXPs which contained a lot more than ships or where future development is not unlikely (like for example Zz-Oo-Haul).

Then, it could well be that an author updates his OXP and the Realistic Shipyards Ultimate Edition doesn`t. Well, no way out of that except the possibility of putting the original OXPs in and using the Realistic Shipyards Strict or Standard Edition, then this problem can`t occur. But if I am informed of an update or find out that there is one I would consider including/reworking that for the Ultimate Edition.

It boils down to a question of (my) resources and (ship OXP author`s) change frequency. If once a month an OXP is changed or upgraded I might just include that if I find the time. Sorry that there`s not a much more coherent answer, but I`m also doing this the first time ever.

In terms to the sharing policy under the CC - The Imperial Courier version 2 is intended to REPLACE the Version 1 OXP, simply because the version 1 pack was experimental and buggy. I'd rather it was NOT included in any other OXPs. Consider this a product recall since you could have someone's eye out with it. Those who want it for themselves can download it separately, but it should be quietly forgotten... please...?

I have been thinking long and hard about requests like this (especially nice ones) and as I already PMed you this is a rather harsh dilemma for me. Because my first impulse would be to say, yes, sure, I`ll do so. But if I do that I might open Pandora`s box. What if then ten other people get the idea to ask or demand something gets changed, pulled out or whatever?

Concerning the old Imperial Courier OXP, I should perhaps inform you that I repaired everything that was wrong with it. I have checked the repaired version that was merged with this program here:

http://validator.w3.org/#validate_by_input

... and there are no more bugs. I have also successfully testflown it. It works. And as to it being Uber: That has been repaired with Realistic Shipyards either. There are ships in there that are much more high-end than the old Imperial Courier ... and they also fit in. And, I have resolved the conflict between old and new by designating the old, higher end version as "Imperial Courier (Navy)" and the new, down-specced version as "Imperial Courier (Civilian)".

I would really like to keep both as they also look different, and the old one (Navy one) is bigger too. So, could you imagine possibly getting warm with the thought that I please, please, thinking of the above, would like to let it stay in?

If you are completely repulsed by the idea that the old (and repaired!) version stays in, I could suggest the compromise that with the next version, I use a modified version of the new model for the old one too, meaning that I use the shipdata, model & textures from the new one for the old one too and change its stats to the Navy version.

But if there is any way out ... please no

Also, the Dreams01Beta pack (if it's the beta that contains Adder, Asp, Cobra3, FerDeLance, Krait, Moray, Python, Sidewinder and Viper) is my work and should be credited as such. Given that a lot of feedback was gained during the process, I would like "The Oolite Community" to be credited too. It's also (as the title says) a Beta and therefore buggy and likely incomplete, and shouldn't really be incorporated into anything else yet. (yes, believe it or not, work still proceeds - albeit slowly)...

I will write "Selezen & the Oolite Community" as authors for the Dreams01Beta pack on the Realistic Shipyards Homepage (reachable from my signature down below) ASAP. (EDIT: Done.) In the Readmes, it will have to wait for the next version.

And it also, as usual, has been repaired. There`s nothing buggy about the merged version ... and if there ever is a newer version, I would be honoured to include it in a future release.

A final word: I do understand where your wishes are coming from, but please, PLEASE do not start the pandora box thingy with pulling things back out. It`s bound to be trouble in the long run, and then I would have to hide behind the Creative Commons License and say "it`s freeware, man, and that`s it" ... and I would rather stay more friendly than this all around.

Long post. Have a nice day, hope to hear from you

L

Selezen wrote:

However (oh, here he goes), I can see one problem with the wrapping up of various OXPs into the Ultimate Edition, and that is Version Control.

I mentioned this problem, and a potential solution, in the Multilingual Oolite thread. The idea is to add a shipdata-overrides.plist file which only contains changes to existing ships, in this case primarily the pricing. However, that would best be done with some pretty big structural changes, so it’s probably a post-MNSR thing.

Hi Ahruman ,

read the thread.

I mentioned this problem, and a potential solution, in the Multilingual Oolite thread. The idea is to add a shipdata-overrides.plist file which only contains changes to existing ships, in this case primarily the pricing.

Well, the Realistic Shipyards Ultimate Edition`s upgrade problem is only a problem of that Edition anyways. One of the things I like about it (and others might like too) is that it empties out the AddOns folder. One OXP instead of 70. That advantage would be gone, then.

However, that would best be done with some pretty big structural changes, so it’s probably a post-MNSR thing.

Yeah, well, I hope the Oolite core stays backwards-compatible so that my OXP will be usable in five years from now still. And I for one won`t guaranty for how long I`ll stay around, work on my OXP and continue to expand and rework it. My stint as OXP author has already been much, much longer than I ever intended it to be, quite surprised myself that I`m still at it. But whom am I telling that

A suggestion:

Perhaps a far future solution could be a more modular system how ships are handled by the game? That they are merged in one editable "Ships" part in Oolite, not lying around as 100 OXP packages? With accessability for OXPs which "take their ships out of" such a folder?

Then someone could just interchangeably take model X and textures Y with scripts Z and give it stats A, B and C with name Q and ship size S and ready a new ship. Everything combinable.

I know what you will say, Ahruman, and I don`t want to open any Pandora boxes for YOU ... but a man can still dream, nay?

Keep up the good work until you no longer want to

L

Why do I get the feeling I am the little boy not sure whether to point out the fat man is naked?

Every time I install versions of this OXP (ever since you first one), it has the effect of reducing my choice. Is it normal for the vast majority of shipyards to have no ships available?

I have tested it against my extensive collection on saved games, covering many systems and tech levels. With OXP in I consider myself a very lucky Jameson if I'm docked at a station with Three ships available. If I take the OXP out, I can have pages of ships available.

So what if the prices are realistic if you can't find any to buy?

Hi!

Troubleshooting brigade here, Sir.

Every time I install versions of this OXP (ever since you first one), it has the effect of reducing my choice. Is it normal for the vast majority of shipyards to have no ships available?

I have tested it against my extensive collection on saved games, covering many systems and tech levels. With OXP in I consider myself a very lucky Jameson if I'm docked at a station with Three ships available. If I take the OXP out, I can have pages of ships available.

No, this is by no means normal, doesn`t happen on my system, haven`t ever heard about it yet.

It would help if you could provide a bit of information:

1. With which version of the three out now does this happen? (Because, the past versions are no longer relevant, even if I`m sorry for your misfortune)

2. Which system are you playing Oolite on? PC, Mac, Linux, which configuration?

3. Which version of Oolite are you playing with? (Realistic Shipyards in all its incarnations does have trouble with any version below 1.70, and due to the nature of a few memory overrun bugs related to shipyard handling in the core game under 1.70 I would strongly recommend Oolite 1.71 anyways.)

So what if the prices are realistic if you can't find any to buy?

That`s definitely no fun. First step is to answer the above three questions, perhaps something will come up.

In the meantime ... under the box.net where the downloads are, I could see that at least 25 or so people (EDIT: more like 30+) must have downloaded one or the other Edition of the Realistic Shipyards.

Has anyone had something happen to them similar to Commander Mysenses plight? And if so, could you please stand up and tell me here about it, and also answer the three questions above, so that I might have a look into the matter?

Sorry Mysenses that it`s not working for you at the moment, on my system the OXP (the Ultimate Edition in this case) does not nescessarily produce more ships in the shipyards but definitely more choice.

Waiting for your answers - keep cool, we`ll find the mistake ...

L

PS: I`m not fat! Who is fat here? This really must be an Obelix moment for me ...

1) Standard v.2.0
2) Win XP on a low end PC sporting a crappy graphics card
3) v.171

I thought it might be because I don't have many additional ship OXPs in my addons folder (because of #2 above... low FPS!). So I d/l'd a bunch more to see if that helped. But no! I guess I will have to test your other versions, see if they affect thing favourably (bit loath to do that, see #2 above).

@your PS
read my subject heading (does not apply... unless you really are a duped emperor)

Hi again,

I have really never heard about that before. The Editions "Strict" and "Standard" DO assume that you have a few ship oxps in there. I could imagine (but don`t know) that the game engine chooses ships from the shipyard.plist, but then the OXPs for most of them aren`t there, so fewer ships get chosen.

This is completely a wild guess (Ahruman? Help? Read this?) ...

If you attempt to use the V3.0, there will surely no problem if it is the above, as most ships are added-in by the same OXP.

Hm, that ...

2) Win XP on a low end PC sporting a crappy graphics card

... that could be a problem. But there might also be a solution. If you DO download the Ultimate Edition and if the performance hit is too big, I will tell you how to take the additional alternate SIRF-shipyards and Sung`s textures back out again. That should take off workload from your PC.

Please answer if you want to try it, then I`ll write a short how-to. Without SIRF-shipyards and Sung`s textures you will still have the hundreds ships and the changed pricing and TL availability and such.

So, and, has someone else seen the naked fat man , i.e. tries to use Realistic Shipyards V2.0 and has no or very few ships in the shipyards? Please tell me, as this would be a serious bug. At least 6 people have downloaded V2.0, so there have to be others with that experience.

Please also say so if you have RS V2.0 and it works fine on your system!

Hope that helped

L