Oolite sequals and Nwetonian physics.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

I think there are those who like Newtonian for the technical level needed to handle it, or dislike it for being too technical and unintuitive.

In Elite mechanics, combat is a high-reflexes eye-brain-hand coordination exercise that requires very little planning, or knowledge. Anyone can climb on a Cobra MkIII and blast off to the universe with little more than the Lave Academy leaflet and the ship's owner's manual (usually left forgotten on the glove compartment after a quick glance), and just have fun.

Real physics has predictable effects, but it's hard and unforgiving. It requires vectorial thinking and some exercise of one's spacial intelligence to realize that heading and course are two different things (it's amusing to see a landlubber's face when I explain that we're pointing so much off our destination to compensate for the lateral movement, and then show the discrepancy between the GPS, the compass and the speed log) or that the concept of speed is static without acceleration.
Besides, at the time they were innovatively mind boggling in their own merits as per the spirit of Elite, and that's why I consider FE2/FFE worthy sequels to it and not yet some more space games.

They're two different variations on a same 'open ended multiple carrer space game' theme - somewhat like, let us say, Marmite and Vegimite are 'yeast spreads'. Some here prefer one and dislike the other, some the other way around; some people dislike this kind of thing altogether and wouldn't be caught here on our boards dead and buried in gold (point them off to cheese and marmelade, or plain butter, or whatever they fancy); there are those like me who enjoy them both for what they are, but don't like them mixed; and finally, there are people who'll happily mix them on an attempt to bring out the best of both, to (oops, a trap!) let us say, 'debatable' results.

Regardless, everyone has interests other than yeast spreads, so we do have a very heterogeneous member list....

Maybe the poll should be redone with these options clarified, (hum, how would LB say it?) as this discussion already started with a biased phrasing that could be construed, and apparently was so by some members, as 'how should Oolite 1.8 be'.

[The Edible Poet]

You know you argue a very good point there Cmdr. Maegil. And as far as system navigation goes I certinly agree with you.

But when it comes to the combat?

too technical and unintuitive

Really? Come on, I think you're trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes there a little aren't you?

I put it to you that, for the combat, nothing could be further from the truth. Isn't the reality that combat game-play pretty much boiled down to either "gesticulate the big laser in the direction of the dot until the dot dies" or "run said dot over".

Yeah you could manually fire a few thrusters off, but so what. In actual fact all that was happening was primitive and repetitive task. If I had to "point the cursor at the dot and press the button" all day, I'd at least expect to get fed some peanuts.

Or maybe you're right and there is far greater depth there than I was able to appreciate, but if thats the case I think you should spill the beans as to exactly what it was, cos i don't get it.



@Commander Mysenses: Yes very helpful. I'm off to do some further investigation. Thanks!

[Cmdr. Maegil]

You know you argue a very good point there Cmdr. Maegil. And as far as system navigation goes I certinly agree with you.

But when it comes to the combat?

too technical and unintuitive

Really? Come on, I think you're trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes there a little aren't you?

I put it to you that, for the combat, nothing could be further from the truth. Isn't the reality that combat game-play pretty much boiled down to either "gesticulate the big laser in the direction of the dot until the dot dies" or "run said dot over".

Or maybe you're right and there is far greater depth there than I was able to appreciate, but if thats the case I think you should spill the beans as to exactly what it was, cos i don't get it.

Oh my, he's going to make me write... All right, but nothing too fancy.

Let us say that two equal ships just broke off the engagement, one finding itself outclassed and trying to escape while the other tries to finish it off, but the laser is overheated.

Now, the ships being equal, the distance should remain stable, or decrease because of the evasive manoeuvres... but most pilots'll know that wiggling the nose only a little doesn't cause much lateral displacement relative to the pursuer, and a large wiggle'll cause the main thruster acceleration to disperse its power in redirecting, cancelling and countering the ship's previous motions making for a radically shorter result.

But, a Newtonian pilot has the option to keep the nose steady while activating a lateral and a vertical thruster (the resulting vector being longer than any of them individually, to something close to 45°) and roll the ship randomly but not too fast to allow for speed build-up and better side displacement without losing any of the main thruster's power. As this can't be synchronously repeated by the chaser, he becomes forced to pitch and yaw to aim and fire, losing ground in the process.

Just one simple situation, and not too technical on the explanation... but were you able to follow, and feel the difference?

[aceone]

Going back to my elite physics car analogy, no modern racing game has it so that the cars can never slide or drift, and no car racing game has the cars completely without traction like they were on an ice rink. But they seem to have it somewhere in between, but much closer to the never slide end of the scale. It works for car games that is why I think it might work for space games if done right.

Having the velocity and facing directions being not quite the same, when executing some tight banking for example, is something probably everyone can come to grips with pretty easily and it might add to the sense of speed/ excitement in a close pursuit of a notorious pirate who is trying to shake you off is tail.

Here’s a hypothetical question, what kind of physics will Elite IV have? Elite or Froniter or something else. I really can’t see it being as per elite, yet I hope it is more noob friendly than frontier, (for the likes of me). Apologies if elite iv if off topic on oolite bb.

[Cmdr James]

I play different games in different ways, and expect different levels of realism.

Elite is simple and fun, easy to get into but makes no real effort to be real.
Frontier added "real physics" which created a completely new and different game, which, if we ignore the bugs and general poor implementation, is neither better nor worse than elite, but rather a different game. Different in the same way that Doom was a different game to Gauntlet, but both are essentially dungeon based shooting adventure games.


I like the idea of more real space simulators, but I dont personally think oolite is the right starting point. For 2 reasons, one, its not what oolite (and elite) are really about, two, its a lot of hard work. So much of oolite would have to be rewritten. At a minimum, I think we would need gravity and conservation of momentum. That gives a completely different play style.

Id really love to have a play at a decent Frontier type game, but I think in the long term, I would prefer to play oolite, and as oolite is what I have now, Im not too keep to work on a rewrite that is probably less fun. I am not too sure I want to spend hours carefully adjusting my orbit to match that of a space station, and slowly moving closer to dock.

There are other projects that are trying to do this kind of thing, and there are games like EVE online that is I think, a much more real universe.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

I play different games in different ways, and expect different levels of realism.

Elite is simple and fun, easy to get into but makes no real effort to be real.
Frontier added "real physics" which created a completely new and different game, which, if we ignore the bugs and general poor implementation, is neither better nor worse than elite, but rather a different game. Different in the same way that Doom was a different game to Gauntlet, but both are essentially dungeon based shooting adventure games.

To this point we agree. Pity about the rest - as follows:

Maybe the poll should be redone with these options clarified, (hum, how would LB say it?) as this discussion already started with a biased phrasing that could be construed, and apparently was so by some members, as 'how should Oolite 1.8 be'.

I like the idea of more real space simulators, but I dont personally think oolite is the right starting point. For 2 reasons, one, its not what oolite (and elite) are really about, two, its a lot of hard work. So much of oolite would have to be rewritten.

See what I mean?

Any FO2 would have to be a wholly different game! To start with, even if you become able to land in Oolite, you'd still do so on a PNG texture wrapped around the planet - there goes a lot of OXPs etc.
Then you have the flight engine, the wassitsname, the thisthingyorthat, etc.!


I'll repeat nicely - say it again so it becomes very clear to everybody, all right?

ANY REMAKE OF FE2/FFE WILL HAVE TO BEGIN FROM SCRATCH!

IT'S NOT THE SAME SPAM-FORSAKEN GAME BUT ANOTHER FRIGGIN' PROJECT ALTOGETHER!!!

PLEASE GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK SKULLS ONCE AND FOR ALL, FOR GILES'SAKES!

I am not too sure I want to spend hours carefully adjusting my orbit to match that of a space station, and slowly moving closer to dock.

Oh, it must be the age... please remind me, what does the button marked "autopilot" do?

There are other projects that are trying to do this kind of thing, and there are games like EVE online that is I think, a much more real universe.

BUT!

They're other universes, aren't they?
I mean, we humans are creatures of habit, and after all the time and energy used in the creation of a mental imagery, created an alter ego, nurtured and gave it life, to abandon all just like that in favour of something that not only doesn't fill the void of nostalgia but also requires the creation of a completely new persona, for mumble mumble internal compensation of unfulfilled mumble mumble mumble...Uh? What were we talking about?

[Cmdr James]

I can see you have strong feelings on the subject, but I dont really understand what point you are trying to make.

We both think that oolite cannot reasonably be made into Froontier.

I dont really understand why anyone would want to reimplement an elitelike game with real physics, and then fly with an autopilot, isnt that kind of missing the point?

And I dont understand what you mean about different universes. Most, or all other games are in other universes, but then Frontier and FE2 were also in different universes.

It seems to me that we mostly agree, so why are you so angry?

[The Edible Poet]

Oh my, he's going to make me write... All right, but nothing too fancy.

Let us say that two equal ships just broke off the engagement, one finding itself outclassed and trying to escape while the other tries to finish it off, but the laser is overheated.

Now, the ships being equal, the distance should remain stable, or decrease because of the evasive manoeuvres... but most pilots'll know that wiggling the nose only a little doesn't cause much lateral displacement relative to the pursuer, and a large wiggle'll cause the main thruster acceleration to disperse its power in redirecting, cancelling and countering the ship's previous motions making for a radically shorter result.

But, a Newtonian pilot has the option to keep the nose steady while activating a lateral and a vertical thruster (the resulting vector being longer than any of them individually, to something close to 45°) and roll the ship randomly but not too fast to allow for speed build-up and better side displacement without losing any of the main thruster's power. As this can't be synchronously repeated by the chaser, he becomes forced to pitch and yaw to aim and fire, losing ground in the process.

Just one simple situation, and not too technical on the explanation... but were you able to follow, and feel the difference?

Well yeah, as I said, mix it up a bit with the thrusters, you can get a touch of cat and mouse out of it. But thats really only scant variation on a single basic theme isn't it. Beyond that?

But it has been a while and I must admit all this talk of newtonian physics has got me intrigued to give it another go. So when I get FFE up and running I'll know who to ask for combat tips won't I.

[and then I'll get to see if you really do have the inside angle that I missed ]

[Cmdr. Maegil]

But it has been a while and I must admit all this talk of newtonian physics has got me intrigued to give it another go. So when I get FFE up and running I'll know who to ask for combat tips won't I.

[and then I'll get to see if you really do have the inside angle that I missed ]

Please, be my guest, and anybody else. I'll do my best!

[Cmdr. Maegil]

@ Cmdr James: my apologies, I appear to have misunderstood you and blew up at the wrong person... but it should have made the point with those who still hadn't got it.

I dont really understand why anyone would want to reimplement an elitelike game with real physics, and then fly with an autopilot, isnt that kind of missing the point?

As with anything else, not if you've done it times enough... Still, I'd guess many people never even once tried the "chase the station" stunt.

[Dr Beeb]

It would be possible to imagine a complex system of computer controlled thrusters that would give a ship the impression of operating in a non-newtonian (ie Oolite) way.

Very feasible, as I've said before the Typhoon eurofghter is unflyable without its 4 computers which compensate and correct everything.

To paraphrase Ian Bell, a true Newtonian flight model makes the game 'less fun', probably one of the reasons for his reduced involvement in Frontier etc. The original Elite documentation referred to a sophisticated flight computer to justify the flight model he used.

[Selezen]

Elite/Oolite's flight model makes for a fun game. Easy to pick up and play.

Frontier is a lot more intuitive, and not really something that an average gamer can pick up and enjoy straight away - there's more of a learning curve with the flight model but, admittedly, once you get used to it then it becomes like second nature.

The main issues come with docking and orbital approaches when you are basically trying to ock a moving object with a much larger moving object that is spinning. This is where the docking computer and autopilot really become necessary rather than them being a luxury.

At the heart of it all is a simple equation:

elite !> frontier (or elite <> frontier for some maths heads)

A lot of the fluff/fiction that I write based in the Elite universe does go some way to explaining why the flight model in Elite can be justified (yeah, my life-long quest to make Elite fit real life through writing loads of crap around it strikes again!). I cite a lot of advanced computer control systems, relative speed calculations and advanced thruster controls that will make it seem as if atmospheric flight is being achieved in a vacuum. Man that flight control computer is busy!

I'd be all in favour of a Next Generation Frontier, to be honest. I think that the work done with the OpenGL versions prove that it can be done, and the great work so far on Oolite prove that making it look better and run better is not that hard a job. But I do know that Oolite is an ELITE remake, and not a Frontier remake or even a hybrid. Frontier NG would definitely have to be a separate project.

[==Troy==]

Sorry for necroing the topic, but I would just like to add 2c.

I was browsing the net for quite a while in the search for another space-sim (and sim in the sence of it being friction-less space) game. And ought to say that most games are indeed taking it either way TOO far into the realism, or its being dumbed down to driving a car in 3D space.

HomePlanet game, was a nice example of space battle being interesting whlist keeping all of the aspects of a newtonian physics, and an ordinary shooter (e.g. you can see your bullets, you can see your target, unless you are firing at more than half the range of the weapon). They took it that far that even rolling (accelerating the ship in roll axis) was taking up your fuel, but still it did not damage the game experience.

I had done some research around the open-source projects, and most of the space-sim OS games are either hard-core simulators, or a dumbed down shooter. (and there is nothing wrong with that).


As for making Oolite into a space sim. Its actually not all that hard. It doesnt take a WHOLE re-write of the engine. I am a coder myself (mainly Quake3 modder) It will not take more than a week's work for a full re-write and debug of the speed controlling system. Why? Well, because the main thing is still there - collision detection. Making the speed unlimited, or limited to a very high value, adding extra variable for acceleration and breaking the direct proportionality of thrust setting > speed is not even a partial re-write of the engine. The main thing here is a re-write of the AI and making autopilot which will handle the new physics, which isnt such a big issue as well.

There are few games that have the balance between complete shooter approach (car in space) and a hardcore simulator (orbiter). And its not the best question to ask about newtonian physics in a game, without explaining what how and why.

P.S. e.g. it can be divided into categories :
Car (we fly in the same direction we are facing)
Airplane (newtonian physics in a friction space)
Space ship (newtonian physics, simplifed/removed docking, orbiting, gravity interactions between objects)
Space simulator (complete or near-to-complete simulation of space, barely a game)

[Frame]

Sorry for necroing the topic, but I would just like to add 2c.

I was browsing the net for quite a while in the search for another space-sim (and sim in the sence of it being friction-less space) game. And ought to say that most games are indeed taking it either way TOO far into the realism, or its being dumbed down to driving a car in 3D space.

HomePlanet game, was a nice example of space battle being interesting whlist keeping all of the aspects of a newtonian physics, and an ordinary shooter (e.g. you can see your bullets, you can see your target, unless you are firing at more than half the range of the weapon). They took it that far that even rolling (accelerating the ship in roll axis) was taking up your fuel, but still it did not damage the game experience.

I had done some research around the open-source projects, and most of the space-sim OS games are either hard-core simulators, or a dumbed down shooter. (and there is nothing wrong with that).


As for making Oolite into a space sim. Its actually not all that hard. It doesnt take a WHOLE re-write of the engine. I am a coder myself (mainly Quake3 modder) It will not take more than a week's work for a full re-write and debug of the speed controlling system. Why? Well, because the main thing is still there - collision detection. Making the speed unlimited, or limited to a very high value, adding extra variable for acceleration and breaking the direct proportionality of thrust setting > speed is not even a partial re-write of the engine. The main thing here is a re-write of the AI and making autopilot which will handle the new physics, which isnt such a big issue as well.

There are few games that have the balance between complete shooter approach (car in space) and a hardcore simulator (orbiter). And its not the best question to ask about newtonian physics in a game, without explaining what how and why.

P.S. e.g. it can be divided into categories :
Car (we fly in the same direction we are facing)
Airplane (newtonian physics in a friction space)
Space ship (newtonian physics, simplifed/removed docking, orbiting, gravity interactions between objects)
Space simulator (complete or near-to-complete simulation of space, barely a game)

you did forget one very important aspect of it all

With unlimited/very high speed comes very large distances.. so this would require rebalancing of everything... and on some other topics where "real" distances are discussed it was revealed that a nasty side effect would be that you would almost never get to meet another ship , and when you do it would go swoosh right by you, this was tested by Giles the author of Oolite...

To all of this... real newtonian physics in regard to speed and distances has no place in a space FPS game, cause the best way to destroy another vessel would simply be to drop an object of a certain mass, but lower than you think in the path of a hyperspeed cruising ship, and on collision/impact this ship would be obliterated... i read that somewhere where real space warships was discussed...

17,000 m/s is the approximate speed of the Voyager 1 probe relative to the sun, when it exited the Solar System.

Which means a ship would be in scanner range for 2 seconds. so real speed, is a no no, and along with that real distances and sizes for suns and planets.

orbit implementation would be cool enough, for as long as it counted for planets,stations & asteroids... In short, non playerble or playerlike objects.

It would be quite nasty if we all had to use Hohmann transfer orbits* or even worse the socalled Interplanetary** Transport_Network in order to arrive at A given place, not to mention the travel time required...

Cause that is what we would have to do if everything started to orbit, the orbits should also be marginally noticeble, and everything in a planets vicinity would have to start orbiting, or else you would have trouble docking.

And one thing i learned,, these is no such thing as easy implementation.. there will allways be saw/murphys law..

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohmann_transfer_orbit
**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplane ... rt_Network

[==Troy==]

You do have a right point that the ships will barely meet in that case. On the other hand, going further and implementing orbits and trajectories is in the category of a hardcore sim. All is needed, is an unlimited speed and friction-less space. Of course the amount of fuel you carry will never let you reach any sorts of speeds where the relativistic effects start to come into the equation.


As for the ships meeting each other. Its actually not so hard to balance out. Of course it would be significantly different from what oolite currently looks like, but radar range increase would allow you to detect and intercept a ship, its just the matter how far will you go before you stop implementing it. Same goes for the placing objects in from of the movement trajectory, completely doable, but even in asteroid field, the probability that you hit an asteroid is less than a tenth of a percent.


There is another solution, which would keep the travelling aspect as it was before, and only modifying the combat - cruise experience. For long range travel ships will have to still use jumpdrive, since the fuel capacity of the ship will not allow it to travel to the destination in any reasonable time. (from your very example, at 17 kkm/s the Voyager will reach the Alpha Centaurus in a few hundred years).


I never said that the Oolite will not look and feel different with the newtonian physics, all I meant to say that it is not that awful as it looks like, and can be a lot as fun as driving a car in space. (again, no orbits, no gravitational interaction between bodies, if that is going to be implemented, it will become a space simulator, not a game).


Personally I found it VERY hard and furstrating to switch from newtonian physics to a FPS type physics to be able to enjoy oolite and the rest of the similar games. Just not being able to shoot your enemy, while moving sideways to him always put me in danger of the collision, not even talking about docking the stations.