Oolite Bulletins

It seems that a lot of oxp ships are uber since they have an unbelievable speed, energy banks etc and an also unbelievably low price. This fact ruins the balance of the game.

I have a golden rule for that “An uber ship is not uber as long as it has an uber price” but I am afraid that a lot of oxp writers didn’t take that rule under concideration.

I was wondering if it is possible for the game itself to do a check based on an equation. That equation will take under consideration the speed, energy rate, energy banks, cargo hold (and maybe some other stuff) and calculate the estimate price of this ship.

Now if the price inside shipyard plist is lower from that estimate price the second will replace the price of shipyard plist. If the price inside shipyard plist is higher nothing will happen. In that way the balance of the game will be maintained no matter how many oxp ships you may have.

Some may say that we can also modify manually the shipyard plist (that’s what I do) but this is not the perfect solution.

If someone believes that this is possible via an opx it would make me very happy if he explains how.

The parameters of that equation are open to discussion.

This is just an idea for discussion. I don’t have illusions that this will happen in the next staple release (don’t worry Ahruman)

I agreee - I generally don't install ship OXPs because in a lot of cases they break the game by offering uber ships. The only exceptions I make are those ship OXPs needed for certain mission OXPs to work.

This is a topic that has been discussed several times and there never seems to be one real answer.

Personally, I don't think even an uber price is enough to excuse the existence of an uber ship - such as the Supercobra.

If nothing else, uber ships should have the handicap of large size (making them easier to hit)...

Wolfwood wrote:

Personally, I don't think even an uber price is enough to excuse the existence of an uber ship - such as the Supercobra.

Maybe but a small adjustment to the price to maintain some kind of balance in the game would not be bad.

Balancing ships by price seems to be a start, anyway. Something else which might help would be servicing charges. It already costs more to service a ship if you have lots of high-tech goodies on board, and you have to find a sufficiently high-tech planet... could the initial base purchasing price be made a factor here too? Maybe not on tech level, but a multiplier could be added so that more expensive ships cost more to service, irrespective of what gizmos you have on board. This would provide an ongoing "penalty": if you want to fly around in an uber ship, you have to work a lot harder to afford the running costs!

I don't think an algorithm would be the best approach; there'd be too many variables, and the authors may have intended the ships to be so priced.
Instead, I'd add other ways to spend money, but this belongs to another thread...

Can't find it!

EDIT: C&P'd the wish list to here.

I like the docking fees idea, and indeed the fuel costs and insurance... anything that keeps players working to keep up their ships.
(BTW, Maegil, I think the "other ideas to spend money" thread is here.)

Thanks. My awful WIFI wouldn't run a search... two minutes to open a page, etc...

A tool to calculate a guide price for a ship from an oxp might make sense, maybe some kind of calculation including energy, speed, roll and pitch, and cargo size. This could be used by authors to check if their price is about right, and tweak it. It could also possibly be used for improving the value of bounty, so that rich (and therefore presumably highly dangerous, violent, many crimes etc.) pirates with uber ships that are hard to kill would generally be worth proportionately more than a lone Fugative adder.

I dont see generating a cost as sensible in the general sense. It completely makes sense for some ships to be overpriced, and some under, maybe there is a premium for a ship that looks sleek over a flying brick with the same stats. For a quality ship this difference could be huge.

Another thing to consider is that in the "later stages" of the game, ie when you have ben playing for months to years, money is pretty much no object. It does not really make sense to me that after playing for a year and getting a few million C you should then be able to buy a ship with infinite shields, and speed like hyperspace even without injectors

Also, if you dont like a ship because its to über you can always choose not to install it, or to manually fix the cost to something you prefer. If someone else wants a supercobra for 10C then fine, why should the game itself limit that?

Cmdr James wrote:

I dont see generating a cost as sensible in the general sense. It completely makes sense for some ships to be overpriced, and some under, maybe there is a premium for a ship that looks sleek over a flying brick with the same stats.

That's why this algorithm will not overwrite the price inside shipyard.plist when this price will be higher than the calculated one.

Cmdr James wrote:

If someone else wants a supercobra for 10C then fine, why should the game itself limit that?

Emm!! maybe becouse this sounds more like a cheat

Im not convinced that this is valuable in anything other than an advisory role. If people want to cheat by getting ships they cannot afford, it is easy enough to edit the save file and add money. This is no harder than editing the oxp and reducing cost.

I think there is a responability for oxp authors to try to make their additions balanced and sensibly costed. If an oxp has a ship that is too good, or too cheap, then it is easy enough to not install it, or to fix the price yourself. I dont think it is the place of the core game to override most oxp choices.

If I want to make my own personall install of oolite unbalanced and "cheat" by ubering my ship, how i that a problem for anyone other than me? Why should oolite stop me doing this? (I dont, but, maybe someone out there does?).

It does not make sense to me.

There have been quite a few debates about the 'uber'-ness of ships here. Usually, if a ship was considered too uber on the board, its creator was willing to adjust its specs, or price, or availibility, or whatever.

And this is fine with me. Generally I think the responsibility for balancing the ships lies with the ship-designers. The opinions of the comOonity are normally most welcome and taken into consideration. And the usual way to balance a ship has been to balance its specs. So if it's uber-fast, give it a ridiculously small cargo space, or poor manoeuverability, or let it carry a front laser only and no missiles.

And I think, in general this has worked. In this equation the ship price is one factor, but not the most important. This is simply because, as Cmdr James reminded us, sooner or later money won't matter anymore. I agree with him also that there can be over- or underpriced ships. Why not? There is even an example in the original ship set: The Fer de Lance is by far too expensive for its specs. But: see its luxurious interior! People are willing to pay for that! Which makes perfect sense in an in-game perspective, even if you as player only have your imagination and the hints in the background infos, because you of course never see any interior of a ship (it's just a computer game).

So I wouldn't bother any more as to remind the ship designers: Keep your designs (especially shipdata.plist and shipyard.plist) reasonable. And if there is reason to debate a specific ship's balance, then let's debate it. That's the comOonity!

Your point of view is sensible enough.
Maybe this is my mistake because I spoke about cheat in my previous post. Actually I didn’t propose an anti-cheat mechanism but something that will keep the balance of the game

Cmdr James wrote:

If people want to cheat by getting ships they cannot afford, it is easy enough to edit the save file and add money. This is no harder than editing the oxp and reducing cost.

This is an intentional cheat by the user. The uber ships with an extremely low price (without the intervention of the user) are a general unintentional cheat that breaks the balance of the game. I think you can see the deference.

Cmdr James wrote:

I think there is a responability for oxp authors to try to make their additions balanced and sensibly costed.

Unfortunately they do not

Cmdr James wrote:

If an oxp has a ship that is too good, or too cheap, then it is easy enough to not install it, or to fix the price yourself. I dont think it is the place of the core game to override most oxp choices.

That is what I do in order to keep some balance but the fact that I have to intervene is a drawback (from my point of view)

Cmdr James wrote:

If I want to make my own personall install of oolite unbalanced and "cheat" by ubering my ship, how i that a problem for anyone other than me?

I agree but this is an intentional cheat by the user

Commander McLane wrote:

...even if you as player only have your imagination and the hints in the background infos, because you of course never see any interior of a ship (it's just a computer game).

Wolfwood wrote:

Commander McLane wrote:

...even if you as player only have your imagination and the hints in the background infos, because you of course never see any interior of a ship (it's just a computer game).

Sorry, Wolfwood, if I have spoiled something for you here! But, it's like with Father Christmas: One day we have to faith the truth! He doesn't really exist!!!