Alien technology - a new weapon?

[Jakob Kramer]

Just some thoughts regarding a new weapon.

When I encounter Thargoids, they usually launch the Thargons. These Thargons then proceed to move to a position somewhat away from the Thargoid mothership and then attack me. I take out the mothership, and the Thargons are reduced to very expensive and somewhat oversized paper weights.

This made me think: The Targons obviously do not have any highly advanced AI and are all controlled from the mothership, since destroying this ship renders them inanimate. In other words: To control a Thargon, all you seem to need is the correct transmitter.

So: This is definitely not an idea that follows the original Elite, but it could be an interesting mission/weapon. Imagine a mission (any mission really, but perhaps a mission that is somehow connected to the military). When completed, you get a "Thargon transmitter". Once installed it allows you to use Thargons as you use missiles, that is, you target them and launch them towards whatever enemy or group of enemies you'd like.

Since Thargons for obvious reasons are not on sale at the stations, the only way to reload would be so scoop up Thargons after battling Thargoids (or to scoop up your "own" surviving Thargons once they have done their job).

I don't know how the Thargon behaviour is programmed at the moment, but if it is something along the lines of "locate the targeted ships position, move to specific coordinates relative to this position, open fire" it doesn't seem completely impossible to make the targeted position for the Thargons, you launch, the same position of the ship you have targeted and then "recycle" the Thargon behaviour already programmed. But then again: I don't know how the programming is done and whether this is possible at all.

But imagine the feeling of launching Thargons at Thargoids... mmhhhh...

[Arexack_Heretic]

unlike in the original elite, thargons are deployed as missiles by the Thargoid warships. The difference is that in Oolite missiles are usually launched only when the AI feels threatened, usually damaged.

Usually this leads to warships charging a target head on, getting seriously dmaged and launching Thargons when terribly close to it. Colliding Thargons do not explode but are comparatively heavy usually destroying the already damaged ship.

There are some problems with your idea.
1- Continuity of background story. Thargons are unavailable to the Navy, why would they be available to the player?
2- Too large. Thargons are remote controlled ships, too massive to fit in a missile tube/pylon.
3- Scooping thargons....actually this could be possible with a smart AI. Awarding equipment is a problem though.
4- Culpability for kills is a problem also applicable to any escort/ smart missile weapon.

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Thargon behaviour.

they are launched from Thargoid Warships like missiles (missile_role: thargon).
After launched, their AI checks for nearby warships (for controll).
If not found, they slow down and tumble untill thargoid is found.
If found they, like their mothership, scan for non-thargoid ships and attack the nearest.
Thargons have cargo_type: CARGO_THARGOID, (anything not "NOT_CARGO" is scoopable), and Thargoid == Alien_Items.

--

I tried awarding EQ_missile for a certain cargo-cannister, but found it did not work, so awarding a EQ_MISSILE_ALIEN might not be possible either.
I need to try fixing that...

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There has been some discussion on escort ships elsewhere, the problems mentioned there also apply to this idea.

As they would be launched as missiles, their owner may reversely inherit bounty/fines/kills. I'm not sure about inheritance for missiles, as flashers do not work on them, suggesting they are subentities in essence.
Need to check with a 2 parts model to be sure.

So. As with launch/scoopable escorts, I'd suggest removing the possibility of buying normal missiles (somehow) and removing cargospace for the number of available launch-bays. (whether it's occupied or not)
I don't know yet how flexible the Java-scripting is, but it may be possible to do this.
Cargospace lost should be fairly high, to prevent small ships launching a bunch of similar sized vessels.
-

I just thought of another risk.
Considder a missile/escort which goes 'dumb' and scoopable when no targets are found.
There are still 'friendlies' about and now they want to scoop YOUR escort/thargon/missile.
To prevent any confusion, I'd programm the AI simmilar to the ThargonAI, but replace non-thargoid with non-player somehow.

-
Another idea: Thargoid jammer.
deploy like Qmine.

Code: Select all

ENTER = ("pauseAI: 5");
UPDATE = (scanforshipswithrole: thargon);
TARGET_FOUND = (setTargetToFoundTarget, "performScriptOnTarget: switchAITo: dumbAI.plist")

To get back to your idea: change dumbAI to pirateAI for maximum confusion!

[Jakob Kramer]

As I wrote, I'm not a programmer, so I am in no position to tell, whether it is possible to program such a feature

As for the background story I have played Elite on Amiga and Commodore 64 (so bear with me, if these versions are different form other versions). In the Amiga version it is possible to scoop the Thargons and sell them at the space stations since the military is quite interested in alien technology. So as for the background story, the military may finally have gained some knowledge about Thargon control (after all... Elite has been played for over 20 years by now ). The Thargons are available to the player, simply because they can be scooped whenever a Thargoid warship has released them (and has been eliminated). In this way they would be a "missile" that is hard to get hold of.
I write "missile" since you are absolutely right: There is NO way a Thargon would fit in a tube or pylon. So they would have to be launched by jettison from the cargo bay (just as it is possible to select and jettison specific cargo containers). This is just a "how it is possible physically to launch a Thargon".

But as for all the technical aspects - I'm in no position to say if it's possible at all You mentioned that scooping would be possible with a smart AI. I hadn't thought of the other ships scooping Thargons, only the player's ship (since he has an interest, owning a "Thargon transmitter").

Thinking out loud: The Thargon behaviour of a Thargon launched by the player would then have to be altered to scan for ships attacking the player's ship (or alternative scan for ships with a rating of Offender or Fugitive, and NOT the player's ship - "non-player" as you wrote).

I agree that cargo space lost should be fairly high, but not higher than that of the weight of a standard Thargon (as for escort ships, this is of course more important).

[LittleBear]

Interesting Idea.

In code, if you like_shiped a missile in shipdata.plist, but changed the modle to the Thargon and gave it interceptAI, that should work to give the player a pylon-monted Thargon that attacks the ship targeted. Might have a fiddle with this!

Making it only awarded when you scoop one would be tricky though, and (although unrealisic, think would have to be pylon mounted for Oolite to treat it as a weapon).

If you play the Assassins.oxp you'll find the Navy develop their equiviliant of a Thargon (a BattleBot), that can be delpoyed by Navy Cruisers. They don't appear right away though...

[jonnycuba]

This is a fantastic idea, although it would only be realistic if you piloted an anaconda sized ship...

Nice thinking.

[LittleBear]

OK here's a quick OXP hack (1.5k!). All it does at the minute (just for testing and a bit of fun) is this:-

Captured Thargons are offered for sale at all planets with a tech-level of 2+ (price 100C)

Mounts in place of a missile.

To use your Thargon, target the ship you want your Thargon to attack by pressing T and lock it on the target just like a regular missile. Press M to launch the little beastie. Your pet Thargon will then fly out of your missile tube and attack (with its little laser) the ship you targeted.

The Thargon is shown as a Square on the HUD missile display.

Err thats it really. Be warned. NPCs can have them too!

This is just a test, rather than a "propper" OXP to see if they work.

Gave em a quick test firing them at Lave Station and they seemed Ok, flying towards the station and firing. They show as a missile on the scanner though. If you shoot at your own Thargon then it will turn on you!

Grab it here:-

http://www.box.net/shared/6kebrdgv2k

Unzip and move the .oxp folder to AddOns in the usual way.

[Arexack_Heretic]

Interesting Idea.

In code, if you like_shiped a missile in shipdata.plist, but changed the modle to the Thargon and gave it interceptAI, that should work to give the player a pylon-monted Thargon that attacks the ship targeted. Might have a fiddle with this!

Making it only awarded when you scoop one would be tricky though, and (although unrealisic, think would have to be pylon mounted for Oolite to treat it as a weapon).

don't need to likeship it to missile, but thargon would suffice. change the roles to include EQ_somethingMINE or EQ_somethingMISSILE and add it to the equipment.plist. Don't forget to add a modified thargonAI.

One problem is with having it select new targets, undiscriminately.

...maybe have it scanfor non-thargoid, then somehow have it determine whether target is player.... problem: non-player subverted thargons. They will then not attack player but owner... maybe somehow determine whether target has an 'alien-transponder-module'...

...maybe best way would be to treat it as a single target weapon.
deploy. attack target. target destroyed. wait. tumble. attacked: setT2PA, setAI2: thargonInterceptAI.plist

...or use get new target from mother...although that method is a bit vague to me.

Missile pylons used as a launching mechanism / determining maximum capacity.
Bla:
"The pylon/tube is fitted with sophisticated equipment to designate the target and controll the slaved ship when launched. This equipment is fairly experimental and because of it's alien origin generates many glitches by interference with human technology. Having one near the drive-bay is un unacceptable risk. In-situ shielding is not optimal, but the external position and intrinsic shielding of the torpedotubes offers a good alternative to adding an external, and thus vulnerable) equipment blister."

---

@L_B: does it already reduce cargocapacity when fitted?
and return it when launched...which is another point.
Does a fighterbay take up cargospace like passengercabin, occupied or not. Or are the things just loaded into the cargobay and tossed out by the autoloaders?
My feelings are for the former, as a sinlge thargon only takes up 1TC. Which is too little, I feel, for a powerfull weapon.
So I'd prefer a fighterbay concept: a dedicated spot in the hold, rechargers, dedicated maintenance droids, upgraded baydoors, launchrails, etc.

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(is scriping already possible in equipment?)
shipyard:
IF: maxmissiles>number_eq_fighterbay
DO: offer: eq_fighterbay

IF: has fighterbay
AND IF: number_eq_fighterbay > number_eq_thargon (or eq_fighter)
DO: offer: eq_thargon.

::I don't know if disabling missiles from being offered when thargons are fitted is desirable.

[JensAyton]

Arexack_Heretic, I’m not sure exactly what behaviour you’re trying to achieve with your description. If you can clarify, I’ll try to make sure it’s possible with ship scripts in 1.69.

[LittleBear]

Think using up (and then freeing up cargo capacity) might be possible with a script action on the player in the AI. Probabley just have to have it tumble when the target is destoyed as I don't think they'd be a way of identifing new targets hostile to the ship that fired it. Could be re-scooped and might be possible to have it re-appear on the pylon when scooped with an awardequipment: THARG_MISSILE. ATM though its just using the standard interceptAI.

[Arexack_Heretic]

@Ahruman:
I assume you're referring to the shipyard/equipment scripting.

What I was suggesting was just a conditions/do script, which checks the player-entity for presence (number of) of equipment as well as the number of maximum_missiles allowed per the ship-data.


a scanForNonPlayer or scanForNonMother method might also be what you are refering to.
Or the stuff to determine whether a target is valid:
like:
scanFor* selection of methods in sequence ....eventually resulting in TARGET_FOUND.
setTargetToFoundTarget, determine whether target has a specific piece of equipment.
(performScriptActionOnTarget: "checkEquipment: EQ_MISSILE", return: EQ_FOUND to caller if present on target)

[Killer Wolf]

interesting thread ideas.

what about a piece of equipment like a "Thargoid jammer" : less power than a cloak and it ONLY affects Thargons, in that they don't recognise you as an enemy. the big ships would still attack you but while spoofing any launched Thargons would loose track of you.

while we're talking witchspace etc, if i can just digress a bit : has something changed in r1.68?? after re-aligning my hud graphic i was out playing and thought i'd go bug-stomping. forced a misjump, and there were DOZENS of yellows as well as a couple Thargs and police. but.....as i was nailing a mothership one of the yellows went red...then another...and another...until ALL were after me and blew me to sht. i hadn't shot anyone, i was Clean, so what sparked that? it's happened every time, and it's spoiling the whole witchspace aspect of the game >:-\

[Arexack_Heretic]

sounds like a bug in the scanclass code.

Is this in a clean install?
What OXPs are installed if any?

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BugJammer is possible as a mine that performs scriptedAction on any ship with role thargon found (in range) and sets them to tumble.

[JensAyton]

@Ahruman:
I assume you're referring to the shipyard/equipment scripting.

No, I’m referring to JavaScript scripts attached to ships which will be able to respond to events, change AI state, target etc., and communicate with scripts of other ships. Conditions like “if ship is not the player and ship is not a thargoid then set target to ship” should be trivial. It seemed like you were suggesting something along those lines, but it’s not entirely clear what you meant:

One problem is with having it select new targets, undiscriminately.

...maybe have it scanfor non-thargoid, then somehow have it determine whether target is player.... problem: non-player subverted thargons. They will then not attack player but owner... maybe somehow determine whether target has an 'alien-transponder-module'...

[Arexack_Heretic]

The babel-problem of me not speaking/thinking Java yet again.

Yes, I was suggesting (and hoping Java-scripting would make it feasible) AI scripts checking their potential targets for certain properties.

Having entities (and sub-entities) send AI messages to eachother would be a very handy tool.

For example:
A massive cruiseliner.
I want it to send out a cloud of ejectionpods in all directions when abandoning ship.
a) EjectItem: escapepod # would send out a stream of pods on a single vector.
b) Spawn: escapepod # would make a cloud of pods appear (if lucky, on the outside of the vessel), but these would then require a custom script to make them find, turn away from, and flee the mothervessel for some time before ensuiing their flight to the nearest port.
c) Using subetities dotted around the bigship, each having an ejectionport defined so as to align with the main-ship-axis.
A "sendAImessage: <targetsubentityrole> <MESSAGE>" method which accepts as parameters the role as target of method and a message that is sent to entities corresponding to those criteria. A third parameter determining the range of the method may be nessesary if it applies to all entities_in_range instead of only entities in ship_object.
Using a corresponding AI for the subentities that responds to the <MESSAGE> by ejecting a pod (or several at intervals)


---
Back to topic.

I'd want a method to querry targets about any of their characteristics.

As I tried to describe: scanning for non-player would only work for player-owned missiles, not NPC ones. A way to distinguish who has launced (created/is parent) of the fire-and-forget-weapon is needed for a logical implication.

[Jakob Kramer]

LittleBear >

I tried downloading the Thargon Test OXP, launched and found a Moray Medical Boat approx. 10 km away. I fired the Thargon and it started flying towards the Moray. It was quite far away (and the sun was directly behind both vessels), so I cannot say whether the Thargon fired at the Moray.
However, suddenly the Thargon started doing a bizarre dance around the Moray. That is, it started flying in perfect circles around the Moray (approx. ½-1 km away from it). On screen it looked as if the Moray was the centre of a clock, and the Thargon was a point on the tip of one of the hands of the clock. One rotation took approx. 3-4 seconds. At this point the Thargon definitely did not fire.

I don't know why this behaviour occured - on the other hand, having a Thargon circle you at insane speed does count as another type of warfare... psychological warfare, but warfare none the less