Oolite Bulletins

So, we've had the debate about an economy server and I think that's not currently viable.

So, how about changes to the in-game economy itself?

It's easy enough to point out the flaws in the current cardboard cutout economy, but that doesn't define what we want instead.

So the first question is - what exactly do we *want?*

I'd like to see an economy which requires skill and thought to make money; that the more risk you take, the more money you can make. Trading in low-Government planets, with all their pirates, should command appropriately increased profits. The player should have access to all buyers and sellers, and each trader buys and sells different quantities at different prices (obviously, tending towards the current "price", just as the stock market does).

I think all commodities should be worth trading in, given your choice of risk and return; so for example minerals have very stable prices, with a very low profit, but it's practically guaranteed. Computers might have highly variable prices, with a potentially high profit, but with the risk of a considerable loss.

I'm tempted to argue for a change to the list of commodities. Thinking back to the novella, they were trading in all sorts of unusual and very specific goods - not the generic goods we have. Perhaps we should auto-generate semi-random good names, just as planet names are generated, so we have a fairly unique range of goods available at each planet. You need to match up what's on sale at a planet with a buyer elsewhere and execute the trade - it becomes almost like moving passengers, rather than the cardboard cut-out back-and-forth we have now between two systems.

(Objective C is apparently a strict superset of normal C, so I can code this up - it just won't be Objective C, it'll be C :-)

I have to say someone could admire your stamina, starting thread after thread on always the same issue.

Well, I wish you all the best. Hope you won't be just discussing with yourself again.

I myself am working on a change of the in-game economy that is working within the existing Oolite (see here), and I still don't see the need to do more, because, as has been pointed out by a couple of people, Oolite (like Elite) is not a trade-centered game. It's just not an important enough issue to reprogram the engine, IMHO.

But, if you wish to, feel free. I just suspect that the other board-members could get tired of that quite fast.

Callas wrote:

So, we've had the debate about an economy server and I think that's not currently viable.

What, you're still at it? Monothematic, aren't you?

Callas wrote:

So the first question is - what exactly do we *want?*

I want you to stop it! I've hinted it, I've asked nicely and then I was quite explicit. Other people also did so, and still...

Callas wrote:

I'd like to see an economy which requires skill and thought to make money

Then you should find another game. Elite, and Oolite, are ship combat games where money only serves the purpouse of improving your ship or buying new ones. Beyond that is just a number that tends to grow big as you don't use it anymore.

Callas wrote:

(Objective C is apparently a strict superset of normal C, so I can code this up - it just won't be Objective C, it'll be C

If it makes you happy, go ahead. Stop talking and proove yourself.

And don't come back until you've done it!

EDIT: C. McLane was faster than me, and seems to agree. Do you need a poll to get it?

Commander McLane wrote:

I have to say someone could admire your stamina, starting thread after thread on always the same issue.

Most tactful :-)

Commander McLane wrote:

I myself am working on a change of the in-game economy that is working within the existing Oolite (see here), and I still don't see the need to do more, because, as has been pointed out by a couple of people, Oolite (like Elite) is not a trade-centered game. It's just not an important enough issue to reprogram the engine, IMHO.

I think it could add a lot of culture to the game - bringing it much closer to the novella.

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Then you should find another game. Elite, and Oolite, are ship combat games where money only serves the purpouse of improving your ship or buying new ones. Beyond that is just a number that tends to grow big as you don't use it anymore.

That's part of my point. It's a very weak part of the game. It doesn't have to be like that and it doesn't have to stay the same. It could be good.

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

EDIT: C. McLane was faster than me, and seems to agree. Do you need a poll to get it?

Why so desperate to shut down this discussion?

If you don't like it or are uninterested in it, don't read it.

Why actually try to prevent it happening for anyone else?

Callas wrote:

I think it could add a lot of culture to the game - bringing it much closer to the novella.

To be fair trading illicit goods was in fact a major part of the Dark Wheel (immature thargoids IIRC). I don't think it merits a rewrite of the game engine though , but would be excellent as an OXP if that's possible.

Certainly Hoopys Casino has changed the trading environment a bit, and is useful in the earlier stages of wealth and ship building, however there comes a point when trading becomes immaterial, cos your blinged out in your superuber flying machine , with a million credits in the bank, so it's all down to kills and missions,etc.

Callas wrote:

Why so desperate to shut down this discussion?
If you don't like it or are uninterested in it, don't read it.

There doesn't seem to be a discussion and that's the spammer's argument...

Callas wrote:

Why actually try to prevent it happening for anyone else?

I've told you, go ahead and do it, but as far as I've seen you rather brag about your programmer's skill. AFAIK you're just trolling, but if you're for real, proove it.
Heck, I might even download your OXP.

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Callas wrote:

Why so desperate to shut down this discussion?
If you don't like it or are uninterested in it, don't read it.

There doesn't seem to be a discussion and that's the spammer's argument...

I'm discussing changes in-game since the I'm interested in two things, the economy and the economy as a server. The server side isn't happening, which was the main point of the MMORPG thread, and so this is about the economy itself, which I wish to see improved.

Whether or not there is a discussion will be clear in a little time; not in ten minutes, which is when you replied. Moreover, whether or not there is a discussion is not a reason to block a thread.

I'd also add your point that this is a spammer's argument is ridiculous. You imagine that I have a need to get a really high post count on a forum or to flood the forum with my views? beyond ridiculous, and in fact really just a reason by which you can have a go at someone who's irritated you.

i'm wondering much the same thing : if you've got such clear cut ideas, why not do it and give us the OXP (for those that might want it)?
the amount of time you come posting message after message on the same topics, you coulda had it done and open for review.

for the sake of a point of view,

I'd like to see an economy which requires skill and thought to make money;

exactly how much skill and thought are you talking? Oolite is a *combat* game, if you have to spend hours analysing markets ~ yawn.

Trading in low-Government planets, with all their pirates, should command appropriately increased profits

i find the game already does that to some degree, low tech to high tech. the pirate thread as regards market prices has already been discussed on another thread

I think all commodities should be worth trading in, given your choice of risk and return; so for example minerals have very stable prices, with a very low profit, but it's practically guaranteed. Computers might have highly variable prices, with a potentially high profit, but with the risk of a considerable loss.

well..that's how it is already. you've just got to know what to take to where.

You need to match up what's on sale at a planet with a buyer elsewhere and execute the trade - it becomes almost like moving passengers, rather than the cardboard cut-out back-and-forth we have now between two systems.

umm....no. what you're suggesting is just an expanded "cardboard cut-out". what's the diff between buying Computers at (a) matching them up w/ a description of an economy on F6 and taking them there, as opposed to picking up Randomly Generated Thing at (a) and looking for somewhere to sell it?

i'm still in favour of the bulletin board as an expansion, and the acts of gods thing that's in production is about as far as i'm interested in the marketting side of things

We had a discussion on trading back in December:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.ph ... +worksheet

I actually think Callas has a point about trading (aside from the delivery contracts) being a weak part of the game. Dajt put it very well in that thread:

I've never found any point in trading between anything other than rich industrual and poor agricultural planets. Everything else seems middle-ground with minimal profits to be made.

I think a few more commodities, some of which open up new trade routes, would be a nice enhancement (no need for complex economic modelling). And, yes, as Killer Wolf says, an improved bulletin board and "acts of God" (such as crop failures/bumper crops) would be great too.

*EDIT* I don't think Oolite should be thought of as purely a combat game. The best thing about Elite was that it was open-ended - you could make a living in various ways. Sure, combat is undoubtedly the most interesting aspect of the game, but we shouldn't ignore the other aspects. (That said, I share the general view that Callas should get down to some actual coding!)

Well Callas, I don't know what you've done to upset the natives so much! You've shown admirable restraint in not rising to the bait, just don't lose it now ;)

You, me, and Roberto may be the only people interested in Oolite expanding beyond its Elite roots - new missiles and ships don't do it for me. I agree the economic part of the game is frustratingly simplistic, but don't have any ideas on how to make it better.

That's why I started the JavaScript project. The current OXP framework only allows very limited expansions, none of which interest me as I never played Elite for the combat! So I want to expose many more of the inner workings so OXPs can make a real difference to the game, not just yet another ship or set of combat missions.

In fact I stopped playing Oolite over a year ago, and since then have just hacked on the code for the fun of it. Don't get me wrong, I'm dead impressed with what Giles put together and I think he's done an awesome job, and extended the original in all the right ways, but old school Elite is a pretty empty experience and you've basically seen everything it has to offer within a week or so of playing. Mind you, that goes for all games up to and including whatever was released yesterday.

To be fair, some OXPs have added some surprising things - I haven't installed the tugs one, but that sounded different. And the factory ship one that had some screen shots a while back looked impressive. Black Monks too, that could probably go somewhere.

But I really struggle to keep working on it because (aside from real life interrupting all the time!) (a) it has so many of Elite's algorithms embedded at its core that trying to extend it in any meaningful way requires a very large amount of effort and (b) much of the rest of the code is dedicated to things that a scenegraph or game framework would give you except there aren't any for Objective-C, so you get frustrated that you have to implement lots of things you might want from scratch. If Ahruman makes it out of the current Big Changes alive he's going to dive into that joy. You'll find all this out if you try to revamp the economy system. But I hope you have a go and have some success.

One thing Oolite has going for it is that even with all that it is still relatively small so it is easier to find your way around the source than something like VegaStrike, which frankly seems to be a much more flexible place to play, except it doesn't feel quite right and is just awful in a couple of places (ie the map), whereas Giles nailed the accesible controls and feel really well with Oolite, in part thanks to the outstanding playability of the original.

That was a ramble, but the main points are: ignore the people telling you to shut up, and start hacking some simple changes into the code. You can probably even post the resulting exes on the wiki, they should be pretty small. You'll soon find whether it is fun or not. Forget Objective-C - that is a red-herring. I'd never seen it before I decided to port the game, and if you know anything about OO programming it is trivial to learn.

I largely agree with dajt. While I want Oolite to remain, out of the box, reasonably close to Elite – because that’s what it is, and there are several other projects if what you want is a state-of-the-art sim – allowing OXP makers to expand and improve on the game in various, optional ways is what makes Oolite interesting in the long term. Adding a “real” scriping language, and gradually moving high-level behaviour (such as the economy) into scripts is a powerful way to extend the opportunities for such modifications.

In the last week, I’ve stepped back from the JavScript integration and script refactoring branch to integrate some of the changes made as side effects of that work. I’m going to put that aside and take a simpler approach to JavaScript integration, hopefully getting it done over this weekend. I still want to do the refactoring work, to remove the implementation of the old scripting system from the bowels of various compex classes in the source, but these don’t need to be done at the same time. In other words, I do intend to roll out JavaScript sometime this year. Probably even this month. :-)

This is an interesting and beneficial debate methinks. Yes the economy part of the game could (and if possibly should) be improved upon. It does get a little tedious ferrying computers to one system and furs to another. Elite, I believe is no just a combat-centric game (though if you want to play it that way then fantastic) it's also a trade-centric game too. Although many players like, enjoy and believe combat is the majority element to Oolite I believe that the trade element should be expanded upon. One thing I would request is that the commodity list (food, textiles, furs etc.) doesn't get messed around with - otherwise it's not Elite/Oolite. Perhaps different goods can be purchased in the passenger/large cargo delivery screen.

If this could me made workable then go for it. I think it's a good idea and would add greater depth to the universe - not everyone wants to shoot things up - plus it makes buying the bigger starships more viable.

Just a few thoughts

Thanks.

BTW - despite the heated debates expressed by our fellow ooliters it's great we can have them - it's only good for the game...

keep up the good work one and all...

would it be cool to have restrictions placed on cargos, prehaps food & radioactives can't be carried together, or if you have computers you can't sunskim as UV rays would damage them (uh, do UV rays damage computers?).
Oh, the Doc had some ideas for a gold rush, maybe new commodities such as medicines could be discovered on distant systems and then there's a rush to deliver them to other systems to help cure diseases etc- oh, thinking about it that's probably the 'act of god' stuff mentioned earlier

Griff wrote:

would it be cool to have restrictions placed on cargos, prehaps food & radioactives can't be carried together, or if you have computers you can't sunskim as UV rays would damage them (uh, do UV rays damage computers?).

Not really, (apart from maybe bleaching out the colour of the casings), but random solar flares can cause massive damage to unshielded electronics due to the broad-spectrum EMP effects. Or I could be utterly wrong.

Captain Hesperus