Oolite Bulletins

So, when do we get Oolite MMORPG? :-)

I'm half serious...

Paying for the servers is the smallest of the problems; make it subscription based.

Hi Callas and welcome.
On this topic see
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=1136
and
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=1743

Uncle Reno wrote:

Hi Callas and welcome. :)
On this topic see
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=1136
and
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=1743

Ah. I see I am not the first to have this idea :-)

First thought is; for the first implementation, you have a single server running a single instance of the Oolite server. It's more limited, but it's far and away the easiest design to consider. It's not MM, of course, though, but it's the first step.

Shame Oolite is written in Objective-C - I'm only a C programmer.

Callas wrote:

Paying for the servers is the smallest of the problems; make it subscription based.

We’re definitely not going to do anything which involves the Elite universe/ships and taking money.

Callas wrote:

Shame Oolite is written in Objective-C - I'm only a C programmer.

If you’re familiar with OO design concepts, learning Objective-C is about half a day’s work. If not, maybe a few days. Objective-C is a much, much smaller extension to C than C++ is. Take your choice of introductory documents:

• The Objective-C Programming Language – covers OO basics, just about the entire language (including bits not used in Oolite – the Exception Handling and Thread Synchronization chapter in particular) and the runtime library used in Apple’s implementation.
• Objective-C is Fun – covers most of the language in about three pages. (Assumes a knowledge of C.)
• Objective-C Beginner’s Guide – a more hands-on tutorial.

The biggest roadblock to most people seems to be the memory management model. (The chapter “Implementing Object Copy” can be considered an advanced topic in the context of Oolite, and the Core Foundation and Zones bit are of no interest.) The section Memory Management Rules is the really important bit.

That said, Oolite is not necessarily the best project to start with; taking a look at Apple’s or GNUstep’s tutorials. (The latter appears to be a rip-off– er, adaptation of the former.) These are geared towards GUI apps, though.

Ahruman wrote:

Callas wrote:

Paying for the servers is the smallest of the problems; make it subscription based.

We’re definitely not going to do anything which involves the Elite universe/ships and taking money.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

If you say people can't pay, then you can't have volunteer servers, then. People have to pay for them, so if they volunteer, it's *exactly* the same as them simply paying towards the upkeep of a commercial server.

The same is also true for people's home machines, which were to them an initial capital outlay, and then a current outlay, as they pay their ISP.

People pay simply by contributing their time to write code for Oolite. It costs them what they did not earn in that time, since they were using that time to code for Oolite.

Ahruman wrote:

Callas wrote:

Shame Oolite is written in Objective-C - I'm only a C programmer.

If you’re familiar with OO design concepts, learning Objective-C is about half a day’s work.

Unn... I'm familiar with them, and use them, as you do, in C - but I don't *like* C++. I do not find it an enjoyable language.

[snip]

I'll have a look and see what it's like.

Callas wrote:

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

You don't have many friends, do you?

Callas wrote:

People pay simply by contributing their time to write code for Oolite. It costs them what they did not earn in that time, since they were using that time to code for Oolite.

And we could go into Marxism and discuss that in depth... Naaaaaaaa!!!

Whatever anyone contributes for the comunity, it is on a voluntary, non-commercial base. If you can't grasp that concept, sorry but you'd better bugger off as this is no place for you.

Besides, Elite is protected by copyright and Braben & Bell are in their right to shut Oolite (as derivative work) down. They don't as they don't mind us having our FUN, but should the contributers start trying to charge anything over THEIR intelectual PROPERTY, that would be the end of Oolite.

Ahruman wrote:

We’re definitely not going to do anything which involves the Elite universe/ships and taking money.

I think what Ahruman is getting at, is that if we did, Mr Braben would close this all down as it goes from fan work (:D) to commercial rip off (:evil:)

EDIT: aaaaaaaand whilst I was writting this Cmdr. Maegil made his point, so what I've said above is now just a repeat of what he said.....damn Cmdr you must type fast!

ramon wrote:

damn Cmdr you must type fast!

Not really. Probably I just had a head start.

Callas wrote:

If you say people can't pay, then you can't have volunteer servers, then. People have to pay for them, so if they volunteer, it's *exactly* the same as them simply paying towards the upkeep of a commercial server.

No, it’s a very vaguely similar thing. Taking subscriptions for server upkeep turns it from hobby into a commercial undertaking. (I’ve hashed this one out, in depth, with lawyers, in relation to a different fan project.)

Callas wrote:

Unn... I'm familiar with them, and use them, as you do, in C - but I don't *like* C++.

Welcome to the club. :-)

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Callas wrote:

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

You don't have many friends, do you?

What?

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Callas wrote:

People pay simply by contributing their time to write code for Oolite. It costs them what they did not earn in that time, since they were using that time to code for Oolite.

And we could go into Marxism and discuss that in depth... Naaaaaaaa!!!

Whatever anyone contributes for the comunity, it is on a voluntary, non-commercial base. If you can't grasp that concept, sorry but you'd better bugger off as this is no place for you.

When you pay for your lunch, it's on a voluntary basis. It's commerical, in that someone else is making a profit by doing so. The cost of buying lunch is the price of the commodities and the service that you buy.

When someone contributes source code to Oolite, it's voluntary, but non-commerical; there is no profit. The cost of contributing is the remuneration you forego by spending that time writing code rather than being doing paid work.

This is self-evidently true. I find it unlikely you disagree with what I've written. However, it has no bearing on my attitude to free software or voluntary efforts and as such you are making a huge and entirely mis-footed leap in your assumptions about my views.

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Besides, Elite is protected by copyright and Braben & Bell are in their right to shut Oolite (as derivative work) down. They don't as they don't mind us having our FUN, but should the contributers start trying to charge anything over THEIR intelectual PROPERTY, that would be the end of Oolite.

*nod*

That struck me after I posted.

I've not yet thought about it further. It seems superficially to be a serious problem, in that it appears to restrict payments towards Oolite development to those of a non-fidicurial nature, which is bloody awkward - like trying to survive in modern life with only barter.

Ahruman wrote:

Callas wrote:

If you say people can't pay, then you can't have volunteer servers, then. People have to pay for them, so if they volunteer, it's *exactly* the same as them simply paying towards the upkeep of a commercial server.

No, it’s a very vaguely similar thing. Taking subscriptions for server upkeep turns it from hobby into a commercial undertaking. (I’ve hashed this one out, in depth, with lawyers, in relation to a different fan project.)

We are both correct, but in different terms. I'm thinking about the underlying economics; a voluntary payment of money is exactly the same as a voluntary payment of a server. You're thinking in financial terms; types of business and so on, where being paid money suddenly means all sorts of new and exciting tax laws come into play and it most certainly is an entirely different undertaking.

Ahruman wrote:

Callas wrote:

Unn... I'm familiar with them, and use them, as you do, in C - but I don't *like* C++.

Welcome to the club. :-)

It's a big club :-)

@Callas

Be really cool to see more proper programers contibuting to the Oolite project (I'm not I just write OXPs as an escape from my day job!).

I don't think anybody meant to be insulting towards you, its just that Oolite is based on Elite by B&B and it becomes a bit dodgy if anybody is seen to charge for it (however indirectly). So we do stuff for Oolite on the basis of its all for free and time, code or anything else is just for fun and no charges are made.

LittleBear wrote:

@Callas

Be really cool to see more proper programers contibuting to the Oolite project (I'm not I just write OXPs as an escape from my day job!).

Alas, I suspect there isn't much chance of me working on Oolite. Wrong language. It's a shame for me that C isn't used so much these days for applications.

LittleBear wrote:

I don't think anybody meant to be insulting towards you, its just that Oolite is based on Elite by B&B and it becomes a bit dodgy if anybody is seen to charge for it (however indirectly). So we do stuff for Oolite on the basis of its all for free and time, code or anything else is just for fun and no charges are made.

It's okay, LittleBear. I set the matter straight, but that doesn't mean I was insulted.

While I could possibly accept an argument for writing applications in a procedural-oriented language, writing large applications in C is dumb and a move away from that can only be a Good Thing. Most of the problems I encounter in ObjC stem from the C part, not the Objective part, and that’s while avoiding the horrible hack that C offers as a substitute for actual array and string support. But that’s an argument for another place. ;-)

Callas wrote:

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Callas wrote:

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

You don't have many friends, do you?

What?

callas wrote:

It's commerical, in that someone else is making a profit by doing so. The cost of buying lunch is the price of the commodities and the service that you buy.

If a friend calls you to lunch/dine at his home, it doesn't matter how much HE paid for it, for you it comes for free. But, by your reaction, you don't seem to have ever enjoyed that experience...

callas wrote:

When you pay for your lunch, it's on a voluntary basis.

No, it's not. If a friend invites me, I wouldn't INSULT him by paying. If I'm at a restaurant or buy groceries, I pay because I'm compelled to do so least the manager calls the police!

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Callas wrote:

People pay simply by contributing their time to write code for Oolite. It costs them what they did not earn in that time, since they were using that time to code for Oolite.

And we could go into Marxism and discuss that in depth... Naaaaaaaa!!!

callas wrote:

I find it unlikely you disagree with what I've written. However, it has no bearing on my attitude to free software or voluntary efforts and as such you are making a huge and entirely mis-footed leap in your assumptions about my views.

callas wrote:

This is self-evidently true.

Sorry if I offend you, but the impression you pass is of someone who has just learnt at school about the capitalism/marxism dicotomy, got dazed by it and is trying to lecture us in a absurdly pedant way. Please, keep the subject to non-realworld stuff, as we play games to get away from it.

And, don't point out the obvious fact that this is 'escapism', because it really is so - and that is the whole point of grown-ups playing games!